The Island of Pelops: Greece's Wine Revival in the Shadow of Sparta

Class transcript:

These vessels had their shortcomings. In as much as, you know, they were useful and held a standardized amount of wine, they were not fired at a sufficiently high temperature to be watertight. As such, they need to be sealed with beeswax or, more to the point, with pine resin. Which brings us to our first wine, Retsina. Retsina comes from the Greek word for resin. Our notion of purity in wine, our notion of wine as the unadulterated, you know, kind of outgrowth of grape juice from a particular place, is thrown for a loop by what the ancients did with wine. Their wine was essentially, you know, adulterated and appreciated as such. And pine resin was one of the cheap adulterants. As was seawater.

The wine of Kos, which was celebrated by Cato in the 2nd and 3rd century before Common Era, was made from raisins, dried grapes steeped in seawater. The seawater itself was prepared over the process of a month, was filtered, and typically would be collected, you know, far from the shore. The berries themselves, you know, would be, you know, used to be used as a drinker. The grapes themselves were also steeped in that water, which filled about a fifth of the amphora to promote absorption. It was left in the seawater over several days. And then those grapes were pressed. That must was added back to the mix with a mixture of resin and various herbs, which was finally fermented over time.

The condensed must of other grapes was added at the end of the process to sweeten the wine, and then the result of the wine was was left to essentially bake in the sun over three or four years thereafter to create some of the most important wines of antiquity. So wine was always an adulterated product in ancient Greece, in ancient Rome. They were always doing things like adding salt water and resin for the sake of preservation of the wine and for the sake of masking the off flavors that come from natural fermentation. So you're dealing with an intensely flavorful product, but one that is subject to all sorts of microbiological bad actors. And adding resin, adding herbs was a way to mask those flavors, making something a little sweeter.

It was a way to produce a product that was more delicious than something that conformed to the pure idea of wine that we now know and love today. Now, I think as most people know Retsina, it is a mass marketed phenomenon. Cheaply in Greece as an industrial product comes from a grape called Savatiano. And it is a wine that tastes like pine saw. People historically have added up to 7.5% worth of resin to the wine. And it should be said in antiquity, the quality of the resin was prejudiced as highly as the quality of the wine itself. You can see fresh resin here being added to wine. This is not a wine that comes from Gaia. It's a different producer that specializes in Retsina.

But you have this whole new generation of Greek winemakers that are trying to make less cynical Retsinas that are working with, not Savatiano. The Savatiano can be really delicious in and of its own right when, you know, made, you know, kind of, in a more considered manner. But people, you know, they're trying to make a more cynical Retsina. People working with free-run juice from grapes like Arolites and grapes like Assyrtiko that's more noble. And then cheaply working with fresh resin. So the quality of the resin, the freshness of the resin, which typically comes from the Aleppo pine, is paramount. And then when the resin is added, also hugely important. So you want to, you know, harvest resin fresh from the Aleppo pine and then add it during fermentation.

Because these flavors are leached into the wine at higher temperatures during fermentation. Much more fluidly, as opposed to after fermentation when the temperature of the wine is much lower. So you have a product here in the Roditis Retsina Nobilis that is made from free-run juice from Roditis that comes from the kind of northeastern Peloponnese. And resin is added in, you know, much smaller quantities in very fresh resin. And more considerate producers are not only considering the terroir of their grapes. They're considering the terroir of the resin itself. And it is said that the resin cultivated at altitude has a more citrusy quality. Whereas the resin cultivated closer to the sea has a more herbaceous quality. You know, what I love about this wine is: A, you know, having been to Greece, having been to the Peloponnese, having tried these wines in Greece, it takes me back there.

You know, it really does what wine does. It does what it can do at its best. And it transforms, it transports. It takes me back to Greece. It tastes, you know, fresh. You know, it tastes herbaceous, you know, in a way that, you know, for me, you know, having had some of these wines in a sentimental, you know, context, you know, is, you know, wonderfully transportive. It's a wine that loudly announces itself. You know, it's not a subtle wine. You know, I'm swirling this, you know, probably a meter or so from my face. I'm not really disconnected from it such. But, you know, I can smell it, you know, a meter away. It announces its presence a meter away. But it is, you know, nonetheless enjoyable, I think.

And, you know, for those of you participating from afar, I encourage you to, you know, weigh in. If this is a pleasant surprise, let us know. If it's as horrifying as the commercial razzinas that you had in, you know, those copper jugs when you were sitting around the table in Athens, you know, equally, let us know. If it's as, you know, scarring as that first razzina experience, you know, certainly let us know. But, you know, this Razzina was one of the first of this kind of new wave of modern Razziñas. And, you know, we talked about wine in ancient Greek context. The Greeks had a tough go at it in terms of their entrance to the modern era. You know, they were, you know, variously ruled by assorted empires after they, you know, left the classical period.

You know, they went from Romans to Byzantines to Ottomans to, you know, Venetians back to Ottomans. And finally, in the 1830s, with quite a bit of struggle and a little bit of help from, you know, other, you know, variously motivated empires in the Western world, gained their independence. But, you know, continued to fight for it. I don’t think people realize that, you know, the Greeks, you know, were occupied by the Nazis. But after World War II, had their own brush with the Cold War and a really devastating civil war, you know, between the communists and rightists variously allied with the old Greek royal family. And, you know, so there is this really, you know, kind of tumultuous entrance into the modern era.

And in Greece, Greece really doesn’t recover in terms of the, you know, wine industry entering the modern era until Greece enters the larger European economic community, which didn’t happen until 1981. So, you know, most of the wineries that we're celebrating today are newer. You know, the oldest trace their lineage to the late 1970s. Most of the winemakers were trained in France classically, you know, either at Montpellier, Bordeaux, or in Dijon. For the sake of this winemaker, we're Bordeaux-trained, fun with Greek pronunciation. We have Leon Karatsakos and Yiannis Paraskovopoulos, typically in Greece the emphasis on the third to last syllable, for those of you playing along at home. So it's not Paraskovolos, it's Paraskovopoulos. But it takes, you know, a little winding up.

You know, you kind of have to, you know, take a little bit of a backswing, you know, for the sake of Greek names. But you get used to it over time. But Gaia began its life on the island of Santorini, opened its own winery in Mimea in northeastern Peloponnese not long thereafter. And Yiannis formerly worked at Boutari, which is one of the larger Greek estates. And, you know, talking to, you know, the other winemakers there, wondered aloud whether, you know, Retsina had to be a, you know, debased, commercialized product. Wondered why it couldn't be better. Because it is such an important part of Greek culture, this taste for resonated wine. And I will say it is such a fun gastronomic wine. It goes so beautifully with a lot of different foods.

You know, try this with anchovies. Try it with gomas, you know, anything wrapped in grape leaves. Grape leaves are really strong kind of pickled flavor. Anything with that, you know, strong saline bite, you know, capers. It just really plays wonderfully with. And then I think, you know, the wine itself is just a really beautiful aperitif. And then, you know, because it's a loud voice, it does go well with, you know, strangely insidiously, you know, meaty things. Retsina and lamb, fabulous together. In a way that you wouldn’t typically expect. So, you know, give Retsina a chance. If you have it already, let it grow on you. You know, it will reward you. But I thought it would be fun for the sake of this wine to try the same grape, Proletes.

Proletes, the name of the varietal itself, thought to come from either Grodos or the word for pink. We’re going to look at two grapes in Grodites and Moscofilero here that are ruddy colored, much like Pinot Grigio. Grigio meaning gray. These are grapes that on the vine, they look almost red. But they don’t have quite enough pigment to yield a fully red wine. But proletarians can make these wonderful kinds of orchard fruit-driven wines. This comes from, pardon, another one of my favorite producers in Greece, Tetramytos. I'm going to finally break out a map of the Peloponnese. Tetramytos is a winery in Achaea. So, the Peloponnese traditionally divided into seven different administrative zones. The one we first visited, Minoa, famous for red wines. But in this case, we have a wine from Gaia, from the great Proletes.

The second winery that we're dealing with, Tetramytos, much closer to Patra, the third largest city in Greece. And it was a disembarkation point for a lot of Greek immigrants coming to America. And it has some of the most beautiful vineyards in Greece. Greece is a hugely mountainous country. The Peloponnese itself is extremely mountainous. We're at a very low latitude here, but there's quite a bit of diagonal shift. It snows on the highest peaks of the Peloponnese. On the regular. And that gives a freshness to the wine that belies its southern Mediterranean origins. And it's absolutely worth celebrating. These vineyards, for the sake of the Erovitis Natura, they are at over 650 meters worth of elevation. You know, multiply by three and you get, you know, the peak.

That's very high when it comes to the continent. You know, we've visited regions in Argentina and Chile that are much higher, but not very much a South American phenomenon. You know, classically. You know, you max out on the continent at, you know, 3,000 feet plus for the sake of, you know, the arable land or the great vines. So, you know, you're pushing that limit here in a really wonderful way. This is a winery that, you know, really kind of embraces what I love for the sake of quote-unquote natural wines, which is this notion of, you know, not intervening but doing so in a way that preserves terroir. So you can see a picture of it. You can see a picture of the vineyard itself here overlooking the strait that separates mainland Greece from the Peloponnese.

You know, it is cartoonishly beautiful. You know, these are vines at elevation. They're old bush vines. You know, it's just absurdly beautiful part of the world. It is wild and rugged. You know, it sees tourists, but not half as much as the islands. Please go. It's just a wonderful part of the country. It's a stone's throw from Athens, but everybody bypasses it for the sake of, you know, the next big thing when it comes to, you know, these outposts in the Aegean. You know, it is a magical, magical place, steeped in history. And I feel like, you know, regardless of what you're interested in, you know, whether it's, you know, antiquity, whether it's wine, whether it's a, you know, a DJ on the beach, you know, blasting, you know, Euro pop, you know, there's something for you in the Peloponnese.

At any rate, I love this wine. Because it has this freshness. It's purity that, you know, really, you know, sings for me. But it speaks to this particular varietal, Roditis. And it has this, you know, really fabulous, you know, kind of pear, you know, kind of like juicy green apple inflected, you know, kind of tonality that, you know, is lovely. And then this like, you know, subtle herbaceousness, you know, this like lemon balm. And then this kiss of the sea that feels distinctly Mediterranean. And then, you know, it's fleshy. It does go through malolactic fermentation, you know, but it's still pure in a wonderful way. Zoe, what do you have from the commentaries, which is always so lively for the sake of these lessons, while I take a sip of the rugby piece nocturne?

Indeed, absolutely. We were wondering how the shape of the amphora changes the taste of the wine, whether the shape or the height. Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, one that I can't necessarily answer with full authority, you know, I would say that, you know, a lot of people who ferment in those vessels are very, you know, mindful of, you know, that teardrop shape. So in Georgia, the cavevery, the, you know, it's a very different take on a clay vessel. And the Georgians are, you know, very adamant about the fact that they don't make wine in quote unquote amphora, they make wine in cavevery. Because the amphora, you know, that word has been, you know, more broadly applied to clay vessels.

But, you know, typically only refers to those, you know, double-handed jugs, you know, Greco-Roman jugs from antiquity. You know, those are the true amphora. You know, but that shape, it does allow for a circulation of the wine over the pomace and, or the lees if you, you know, separate skins from juice prior to fermentation. It allows for this circulation process during fermentation, you know, that gives, you know, gives the wine itself more contact with the lees. And, you know, that, you know, can give the wine, you know, kind of fuller body. It can, you know, protect the wine after fermentation. The Georgians have this notion of a wine being raised with its mother, which they call the cha-cha. And, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar Greek notion.

But the amphora itself in antiquity was a standardization. It was a means of standardization. So, the size of those jugs was standardized. And, you know, so, you know, the wine could be appropriately taxed, you know, across different domains. And the Greeks tended to think in terms of, you know, geographical origin. They didn't really distinguish between producers, you know, but they would distinguish between, you know, the wines from Kos, the wines from Chios, you know, you know, the wines from Licinia near Nemea. You know, they would distinguish between those, you know, for the sake of taxation. And a, you know, pretentious Athenian. So if I was, you know, an Athenian once upon a time, you know, I would, you know, have been, you know, equally as insufferable about, you know, my point of origin as I am about, you know, individual producers now.

So they were truly, you know, connoisseurs, you know, in their own way. The means of production were just, you know, very different than they are in a modern context. But, you know, I would say the shape of the vessel was, you know, a concern. But I think, you know, the standardization, you know, for the sake of production was probably a bigger concern as it related to the, you know, larger wine trade. Awesome. How do we know so much about primitive ancient Greek wine? Is it from like frescoes that we're uncovering, ancient texts? All of the above. They wrote about it a lot. You know, you love something, you write about it. Cato in the Roman era, Pliny the Elder. Some of the first tracks about viticulture on a large scale actually come from the Phoenicians.

And it's thought that the kind of, a lot of the things that the Romans ultimately adapted at scale, they learned from Phoenician, Phoenician viticulturists in North Africa, modern day North Africa, as opposed to the Greeks. The Greeks did apply the viticultural science of training their vines as opposed to just working with bush vines. So you train them at various levels and it's a much more efficient way to produce wine at scale as opposed to working with individual bush vines. You know, there are Greek writers, you know, as early as Cato that, you know, talked about limiting yields on, on, you know, wines to create a better product. But, you know, broadly, they were more concerned with maximizing yields and making as much wine as possible.

And the grapes that yielded the most product were the ones that were historically prized, but they wrote about it, you know, quite a bit. And they celebrated it in song and in poem, you know, dating back to the sixth, seventh century. So, you know, we spoke about, you know, the sculptor would sell Glad My Soul in Anacreon. Anacreon was writing in the sixth, seventh century BCE, you know, and these traditions predate, you know, the written word, you know, so there's a whole oral tradition that celebrates the vine that is older than language itself. So there's a lot to latch on to. There's a lot to study. And, you know, again, I talked, I've talked in previous lessons about, you know, you dig deep enough and study wine, you know, you know, if you dive down that rabbit hole far enough, then you're really studying Western civilization in this really fascinating way.

And I love the way that, you know, looking at Greek wine in particular illuminates that. And, you know, I would never want, you know, you all to drink wine, you know, just for, you know, its own sake. You know, sure, you know, tasting nuts are fun, you know, pairing food and wine is fun, but all these other disciplines, all these other things that we can, you know, talk about, you know, for the sake of using wine as a cipher, you know, for me, that's what it's all about. It's about, you know, being able to touch on all those different disciplines, you know, through this one lens, you know, and I think that's, you know, the real magic of, of what, you know, happens in the bottle. Awesome.

Are there any other countries that made wine in this primitive way with the use of resin and not just using aromatics or other like fruits to flavor the wine? Yeah, that's, that's a, you know, excellent question. That is, you know, the, the classically, the Georgians would line their vessels, which were also fired at a low temperature and still are with a more neutral coating from propolis, which is different than beeswax, but essentially resin from the tree. And it tended to be more neutral mistake of the resultant wines. Everyone was flavoring their wine. So the oldest evidence of wine, which is, you know, typically dated through the presence of, you know, like tartaric acid at higher quantities, which is a unique property of grapes, unique chemical property of grapes in, you know, these ceramic vessels, you know, which they can then, you know, kind of scrape away at and study.

But, you know, it's never just grapes. There's always honey herbs. There's always other shit in the mix with ancient fermentables. That's always the case. You know, it's not like the ancients were, you know, looking only at, you know, single varietal wines. They were throwing a lot. Stuff in the mix. And, you know, you know, kind of wanting to play around and create a recipe that made it a tastier beverage. So that was cross-cultural. As far as resin goes, I can't think of another culture that famously used resin in its products. You know, I can think of, you know, very ancient evidence of the Chinese fermenting, you know, you know, doing mixed fermentations of rice and grain. The Babylonians doing the same with you know grain and grapes.

But I can't think of resin entering the mix outside of ancient Greece. And I can't, you know, say with confidence whether that's a uniquely Greek phenomenon. But I can say personally, I haven't tasted wine outside of Greece that is resonated. And I can't think of a drinking culture that celebrates resin as much as the Greeks do. What about these amphoras that are aged underwater? How does that differ the wine? That would, so yeah, there's some people doing that. Famously like a winemaker in Liguria that's doing that now. You know, that would be a way of limiting oxygen transfer. So underwater, you know, essentially sealing the amphora. The Greeks would seal their amphora as well, you know, as do the Georgians. And typically there's just like big ritual around opening the amphora.

So, you know, the ancient Greek calendar revolved around the viticultural calendar. So the ancient Greek calendar was the grape growers' and there's something, you know, really poetic about that for me. And there was a very significant festival, you know, in, in February, second month of the Greek year, which I don't think was February. We adopted the Roman calendar and neither here nor there, but the second month of the year, they would unseal the amphora and there everybody would party. And, you know, so that was, that was a big, a big deal. You know, but I totally lost my strength of thought and lost my strength of thought. That's the original question. You know, You know, I'm seeing it where it was, was, was a, was a big thing.

And, you know, I would say the underwater, you know, it was certainly limited oxidation on the lines. And, you know, there were people into, you know, more kind of spiritual forces. I would say the general action of the ocean or whatever, you know, would, you know, ensure. You know, more favorable fermentation or whatever. But I, I can't. Uncover a lot of evidence of the Greeks. That said, seawater was a very important ingredient in their wants. So, you know, there was this mixing and, and very often they would mix seawater with wine in a way that we've learned is fundamentally unhealthy, but the Greeks did it. And that was as a preservative to some extent, and because also there weren't a lot of healthy sources of, of drinking water. Awesome.

I think the next question might be a good segue, but, can we talk a little bit more about the specific soils in the Philippines, not just but other different types. Yeah. So, Greece is at the intersection of. You know, so a lot of the most interesting winemaking regions occur. You know, these boundaries between different tectonic plates. That's the case in Greece. They have earthquakes. You're dealing with the African plate colliding with the, you know, Euro-Asiatic. A lot of ancient rock there. It's a decent amount of limestone. You know, in the Maya you're dealing with, you know, mostly heavier soils, but porous soils. On the hills. That's something that we'll get into. More deeply. Once we tackle. I read to go in particular. Porous soils for the sake of Akia. As well.

You know, but there, there's a little bit of limestone there. You know, we talked. Limestone for the sake of other lessons, you know, being more basic rock and having all sorts of important properties for the sake of water retention. You know, but also water slopping that are hugely favorable for maintaining acid is great right. But it's a great segue for Montania. So we're going to go back to the map, the Peloponnese or some map of, of Greece more broadly and then we'll look at this court you look great the most most popular which is you know one of my favorite grapes you know full stop worldwide let alone. You know, in Greece. So, Monsanto is about a 30-minute drive from the man. I've made the drive; it's beautiful.

You know, you have to be careful if you're going from a tasting in Nenea to a tasting in Montania, obviously. Regardless of how long the drive is, but. Neither here nor there, you're at elevation. You know, this is a terrible map for it, but. There are ski areas. Both. Both in the shadow of the vineyards in the shadow of Patra; you know, there's quite a bit of snow. Montenegro is the same; they might not be the greatest ski areas in the world. It's not Stade, but, you know, you can ski there in the winter, which should tell you something about the climate. It's actually a much more continental climate than it is Mediterranean, in spite of your proximity to the sea here. And the great book choice is called Mosco Piliro.

This is Mosco Piliro here. So this is Mosco Piliro. It's a ruddy-hued grape. And, you know, you would look at this on the vine, and you would think that, you know, you're dealing with, you know, a red grape as opposed to a white. But Mosco Piliro actually embodies a family of grapes. And you find this a lot in ancient research. You find this a lot in regions where you have one grape, like Pinot, famously. Pinot is a family of grapes, and there are a lot of different iterations, rather. So, you know, you have Pinot Blanc, Pinot Mouillet, Pinot Gris, which we talked about, which looks about like this on the vine, and then Pinot Noir, most famously. But Mosco Piliro embodies a lot of different, you know, families belonging to, you know, this, or grapes belonging to this larger family.

And if you give it any time on the skin, such as the case with one of the wines we'll be enjoying, you get this. You get this really fabulous copper color, which in Italy they call Wermato, which means copper. There's no real word for it in Greece, but, you know, it's really seductive, you know, for me. And they're really special creatures, these wines. But Mosco Piliro is hugely aromatic. You have calcareous soils here, so you have limestone deposits, you know, which allow, you know, acid retention during ripening. But more importantly, you have a lot of different varieties. You have a very long growing season. So you'll see harvest here in October. My wife and I visited in, after navigating these, like, hugely mountainous roads, and my wife almost yakking in the passenger seat because I was driving like an asshole, you know, around these, like, you know, bucolic, you know, but, you know, crazy, somewhat intimidating, you know, mountainous Peloponnesian roads.

But, you know, there's a chill in the air, you know, in August. In these places, and it's preposterously beautiful. And there's this really long ripening window. And, you know, grapes, you know, they're like, you know, good stews. You know, ripening grapes is like working with a slow cooker. You know, low and slow, you know, almost universally makes for a better product. And, you know, that's the case with Mosco Piliro. So, Montenegro is one of the most, is one of the coolest regions in Greece. And Mosco Piliro really benefits from that long ripening window, as it were. So, we have two here. Semele. Semele is a winery that is, it's family owned. Inaugurated in 1979. I love the name dropping that you hear. So, Semele was the mother of Dionysus.

Dionysus is rare; he's kind of variously included among the Philippine gods. But he was the, the child of Semele, who was the princess, you know, as it were, and Zeus. And the story goes that Hera, who was famously jealous, although in a modern context, I don't think the Greek myths were very PC. She had every right to be jealous because Zeus was a serial philanderer. But at any rate, she got wind that he was, you know, kind of messing around with this princess of Thebes. And she convinced her to allow Zeus to show himself in his unadulterated form. And of course, being near mortal, she, you know, puffed, you know, she, you know, was evaporated. She was consumed in flames.

But Zeus did her a favor and rescued her unborn infant by sewing him, Dionysus, the, the god of grapes and, you know, the god of the vine, into his thigh so that he could, you know, be fully formed. So Dionysus in traditional Greek mythology was called twice born. He was a twice-born Dionysus and emerged from Zeus's thigh, much as Athena emerged fully formed from her father's head. Greek mythology is, is, is, you know, fascinating, if not, you know, occasionally. Totally, he's stomach-churning. But she's a namesake for this winery. I love everything they do. They're based in Nymēa. We'll get there in a second. But they make wine. Just don't throw away in Monsignia. This is modern vinification. Whistle clean, pressed off the skins. Absolutely, you know, aromatic and, and pure.

And then The Hoofagh Lawyer, which, you know, everything you need to know about these wines, you know, encapsulated in the color, in the color. This looks like a roséussen. This is pressed directly off the skins. This only has hours of skin. skin contact taste between these two wines it's illuminating um this is citrusy and brisk this is weightier and waxier um which just goes to show that you know many of the most interesting things that we love in wine especially aromatic varietals come from the skins of the fucking grapes you know so this notion of like quote-unquote orange wine you know people you know think of it as this like hipster something and novel but people have been leaving wine on the skins since wine was born especially white wines because the most interesting shit is in the skins and if you just give it a few hours in the case of aromatic grapes like a burt's and reese and riesling you know or moscafilero you get a product that is hugely aromatic so you go from this which is you know um you know fresh and citrusy um you know and bright and briny but you know lightly aromatic to this which smells like a rose garden you know it smells like the perfume bites that my my sister and i had when we were younger in department stores you know it's crazy but it doesn't lose that briskness doesn't lose that you know um you know kind of uh sustaining acidity um because it comes from this alpine you Know continental climate at altitude, um, and that's a miracle!

This wine, for me, and so, uh, tropical winery comes from a family that's making wine for a long time. The winery itself was established in 2010, um, but they've been making wine for generations. They call this the grandfather's wine. It's unfined, unfiltered, um, you leave on the skins and they cite this you know older tradition of leaving the grape on the skins to extract these more interesting properties uh from those skins, and for me, this is both a blast from the past and a way forward, um, and I love that about the modern Greek wine scene. Is you know there's so Much really interesting source material to work with, you know that you know this, returning to your roots it opens up these wonderful new uh possibilities and and I love both of these wines, they're loud wines and loud wines work with strange bedfellows for the sake of cuisine so you know you could go greek, you know this would be delightful with you know greek taverna cuisine but I love Moscovila with like southeast asian food, you know I love it with you know um your your curries, I think like afghani cuisine ethiopian cuisine all these you know cuisines that developed along the spice road, you know that developed in you know proximity to the spice islands you know they benefit from these wines and and you know some of those strange bedfellows you know they um you know have become my favorite parents uh in the world and then texturally that time on the skins it gives us this oiliness you know there are no tannins to speak of but there's just like lovely greasy weight to this wine that um is it's just really um uh you know um beguiling uh to me and i want to you know kind of uh keep revisiting uh any thoughts uh from the commentary on the moscovila rose here so yeah absolutely  i'm absolutely um first you use this description whistle clean a lot and i was um we were wondering if you could elaborate on what exactly you mean by that so i mean there's that's not a you know um technical term um you know for me what's clean and winemaking um is about you know more you know kind of modern winemaking so what's so clean is you know a winery that looks like a laboratory uh you know like blanketed um uh you know kind of stainless steel tanks um you know a winemaking regime that is carried out at lower temperatures which tends to preserve the more delicate aromatics in wine um and you know something That is brought into this world, you know, with um, you know, sulfur added at the end of the winemaking process, um, as a preservative, um, in, you know, responsible quantities to create something that you know is this like really kind of um, you know, pure expression of um, you know, the fruit itself, so when I think of winemaking that's a whistle clean regimen in in my mind, you know, uh, you know we just have to say that like um, it's it's a pejorative, you know, I think I I love whistle clean wines but you know I also love lines that get a little dirty, you know, um, so you know that it's just it's just like a a regime, you know In terms of you know, even more modern, you know, kind of uh Louis Pasteur endorsed you know, kind of uh winemaking regime, what else you got there um, why is the heaven lure a little bit uh fizzy um, I didn't get any fizz in mine um, it could be um fizzy because you know so you know when you're using lower quantities of sulfur, so this is a wine that you know, the only intervention that they make um, is minute addition of sulfur at bottling and people do that um, because sulfur binds well, it doesn't exactly bind with oxygen but it binds in components in the oxygen in the wine that um, you know are subject to oxidation, you're really going to have To be careful with that, um, so it's a bit like embalming fluid; it preserves a wine as it was when it left uh the cellar, um, if you add less sometimes a wine, um, you know can referment in bottle, um, which would give you, you know what the French would call a little petillance.

Alternatively, um, if you bottle a wine, um, you know before fermentation has quite finished with a little bit of residual CO2, um, germs the Austrians they often do that, um, they call it Spritz, um, then you get a little bit of that, um, I would imagine, um, perceptually that that, um, effervescence is more about acid so you're at elevation here, and and you're dealing with Wines that are, you know, higher in acid um uh lower in pH you know not as high as some other Greek varietals like a Syrtiko um which can dip below you know three in pH which is like almost vinegar um but um we perceive that physiologically uh physiologically as if that like kind of light fizz so I think that's a good way to  that's just I guess you know sometimes what happens as well um you know when we when we taste through these things against things that are higher in pH as you perceive a little bit of that you know spritz so that could be what's happening as well and when we were looking at the photos of the Moscoviela vines Um, the trunks were super large. I was wondering if you could discuss that in Ancient Vines and why Greece is so special? Well, that just speaks to the age of the vines um, um... So, this is going to be like kind of counterintuitive, but um, there are fewer old vines in the major growing regions of Greece than there are in Chile, which we tackled last week.

And that's all to do with phylloxera and it's all to do with the pace of change uh, in terms of the modernization of the wine industry. So, you know people um, you know when they were shifting gears and making more modern wine um, tended to rip out older vine stock for the sake Of more productive vines, um so um there's uh desperately less older vine stock in this most ancient corner of the world than there is in um the you know air quotes 'newer' um when it comes to uh viticulture and and winemaking in the European context, a place like Chile um that yeah that I love the look of that vine I don't know how that was just you know a stock image honestly of Muscoviela row um I don't know where those particular vines are from but um you know vine trees uh vines as they develop they they take on their own personality they're like olive trees and they have their own memory and like um you know they're people that will like meditate in this in the shed like in the you know um presence of old vines because you know they're so you know they they do have um you know this wonderful life force um of their own um and and you know it's really really cool to see um you know vines you know take on uh that that life but um yeah i would imagine those are you know a couple decades old at the very least um and you know that's that's that's that's that's that's that's amc where the the to has been more gwinnett i think uh members of the citizens of the Frage would think are beautiful and of course a lot of us i think are not at the same level of nothing quite like um, the, the, a, of, vines, um, but I'd like to probably add also at the bottom again a few decades old and honestly in Montana, you know, I would guess that the oldest vines that they're working with there are about we're probably planted in the 70s, um, you know, because you know that's when the modern wine industry, uh, in Greece really started to take off; that sounds to say that people weren't making wine, everybody was always making fucking wine, like Uncle Bacilli always came to the table, you know, with wine for you to drink, um, but in terms of like commercial production, exportable production, um, it's, it's, it's, you know, kind of, kind Of industry, absolutely it's so interesting there's such like new areas in Greece, and then you have these like ancient bridges that like completely live through phylloxera and yeah it's both it's both new and old and I think like you know that's really important to understand about these um emerging regions um and you know eventually we'll tackle eastern Europe and it's has the same kind of thing going on and you know uh Georgia, you know for instance which we've touched upon and you know feels relevant in the context of this lesson because we're dealing with you know birthplaces of wine culture um you know has a similar There's something going on, you know.

There aren't a ton of old, like really old vine material in Georgia. There are few, you know, but ironically, this place that was the birthplace of the domestication of um, the vine that goes into all fine wine, it doesn't have a lot of old vines itself, um, but neither here nor there, um. We're going to go to the next question, um, so I'm going to go to the next question, um, we're going to make the switch now, um, to um, Nemea, which is kind of like uh, Greece's uh, Napa Valley, so uh, we're going to go uh, for the last time uh, back to uh, this map of the Peloponnese, um, you got Athens,  and then you got Nemea, stones are away from Athen's, Um, and Nemea is a valley, Um, but you know, you have a sort of benches, Uh, just like you do in, Um, you know, Uh, Nappa, historically, Um, kind of mythologically, Nemea is famous, Um, for, Uh, the first labor of, Hercules, so, Uh, Hercules, Uh, famously was tasked with 12 labors, the first of which was slaying the Nemean lion, and actually in antiquity there would have been species of lion that, Uh, roamed um as far west as, Um, ancient Greece, but, Um, Hercules had this kind of slay the Nemean lion which had this uh um uh like he was blanketed with this coat um that was uh impervious to harm so Hercules strangled the lion because when he initially loosed arrows on it um the arrows did not penetrate um its um coat and then uh when hercules when hercules wanted to um skin the limit nimean lion as one does when you know when you know when you know when you know when you know when you know when you know you've accomplished your first labor um he couldn't do it with uh his sword um and had to borrow um one of the claws from the lion himself um to accomplish that but uh throughout the rest of his labors hercules wore the pelt of the nimean lion as a protective vessel um but it's said that after um he worked up a thirst um you know uh you know strangling this poor lion uh he slaked his thirst with nimean wine and with ayuritical so um again um uh you're dealing with a lot of syllables um for the sake of this great um uh it is pronounced ayuritical um third to last syllable um that comes from uh the the greek for saint george um i feel like the dad um in uh um you know the the greek wedding um you know which comes from the greek wedding um which comes from the greek wedding um which comes from the greek word for uh but in this case comes from the greek word for uh saint george um because uh there's a local village named after the saint there are people that will tell you because a feast day occurs near harvest, that's bollocks!

Uh, comes from the local village, uh, but this is the noble grape of um the Peloponnese, um. It is the most widely planted Greek red grape, um, it has this like you know kind of... we've talked about Merlot, we talk about Merlot as a grape just wants to party! Agiorgitiko is a fleshy full-fruited grape that also just wants to party, for me it's kind of like equal parts Merlot and Sangiovese, um, you know so it's got a little more of like a savory thing going on than... Merlot, it's maybe a little less of that like uh cordial cherry thing and a little more you know kind of... gamey herbaceousness in a fun Way um, but it's a fabulous grape uh when you deal with it in the right way, the vineyards we're dealing with in the valley floor, um, is a region that's divided into sub-regions, uh, importantly and they're trying to suss that out, so you have assorted wineries, we're dealing with, um, Bayrak, Barakatis, and Skudas, so Skudas, the winery is number 10, uh, right down here, uh, it's way down in the valley floor, um, like in Nappa, um, you get your sh**ty jug wine, your unremarkable grapes in the valley floor, um, much uh, closer to Coosie, um, and also closer to cootsie um, uh, Aspro Campos, um, up in the mountains, you get, um, you know Elevation and grapes that take longer to ripen, and you're more, um, structured wines, so, uh, Baracacharis, the winery is here, as is Gaya's winery, as is Semele's winery, um, closer to this Kutsi region, the winery may be down here, um, uh, in the valley floor for the sake of Skouras, but he sources grapes from throughout the highlands, um, and his, uh, prestige cuvées come from the highlands, and he makes a wine called, um, uh, Grand Cuvée from some of the higher altitude, uh, vineyards in the region at well over 300 meters, um, of, of elevation, um, so, um, you know, that's the story, uh, with, um, uh, Iritico. Uh, for me, um, these grapes, um, you know, it's a study in, um, the use of oak, uh, for wine, so, um, you can kind of tell if you're a wine lover, um, you can kind of tell if you're a wine lover, um, you have both wines at home, the color demonstrates you're really different, um, you know, for the sake of the St. 

George, um, much lighter, um, for the sake of the old Monolitos, um, you know, uh, much darker, um, and then tasting these side by side, this is where, like, um, you know, tasting the, uh, St. George first is hugely instructive, because there's, there's definitely a through line with these, um, they have the same plush, You know, plum, juicy, you know, kind of red fruit quality that's undeniable and fun. Um, you know, the St. George, for me, is another one of those wines that, you know, makes for strange bedfellows for pairings, because it's so exuberant in its fruitiness that it goes really well with spicy foods. Um, you know, in terms of the winemaking regime, there's no new oak on this wine; it does see 12 months in, um, uh, used French Barrique, but because the, um, the oak itself in those, uh, you know, 200, you know, 25, uh, 25 liter vessels is, is older, you get less of that.

You know, um, you know, kind of, uh, you know, vanillin, and, you know, less of those, uh, you know, kind of, uh, harsher tannins, um, you know, kind of effused into the wine, um, and, you know, the wine just softens, uh, in those used barrels, and you get a, a, an end product that is, that is just, like, juicier, um, and, you know, more purely fruity, um, you know, for riper fruit's sake, whereas for the sake of, you know, this, uh, old monolithos, you know, much more extraction, you know, much more density, um, you know, much more of that, you know, kind of racinated fruit, um, for the sake of this wine, you know, really dynamic, uh, interesting way, And then that added overlay of 12 months in Barrique.

So, you have, you know, 30-year-old vines versus 50-year-old vines, and then you have, um, you know, used oak for a year versus a new oak, uh, for a year, and all of that gives you a product here that has, you know, much more weight, you know, is much sapier, much denser on the palate. I think it's really fun to taste these wines for the sake of continuity, and, and, you know, for the sake of watching the wine evolve, for the sake of wine from younger vines versus older vines. You have, you know, this kind of younger brother, older brother dynamic with these two in a way that's like really easy to trace, um, and I think it's a really valuable tasting there, therein, um, and, you know, these are both wines that, um, you know, kind of representative of the newer wine scene.

In Greece, um, George, uh, Skouras, um, he's a bit of a playboy, um, he, uh, offered my wife his hand, um, walking over the, the tanks, um, and it, it felt like, you know, George, um, just looks for excuses to offer his hand, um, to, you know, beautiful women like my wife, you know, walking through the winery, but, uh, he's a, a lovable dude, uh, nonetheless, um, uh, and he started, uh, he trained in Dijon, but started making wine in his father's garage, and really was one of the, you know, um, winemakers in the 80s that put Airitico on the map, uh, through the ages of a wine called Megasonos, which we're also selling, um, and, and really, you know, um, took this, you know, local grape and made it a grape that could be lauded internationally, and then, um, you know, you have Baraktakis, which is, um, uh, a newer, uh, producer, um, you know, they've been making wine for generations, you know, kind of that old story, but, um, you know, only a commercial winery in the last, you know, decade or so, um, uh, within Nimea, um, but, you know, working without, um, native yeast, or sorry, working without, you know, um, inoculated yeast, fully native, um, you know, they, they do embrace new oak, but, you know, again, you know, this new oak, which has become a bit of a bugaboo in, in the natural wine world, for me, you know, it's, it's like, um, you know, any other tool, um, if you're using it to appropriate and benevolent ends, you know, you get something that is a greater,  whole than the sum of its parts, and Ionitical, in particular, is a grape that, you know, takes on new oak really beautifully, um, you know, it has, You know, thin skins, much thinner, um, than, like, you know, the Cab Sauvings of the world, or even the Syrahs of the world in cooler climates, or, you know, certainly the Sangioveses in the world, you know, but, um, you know, there's a wonderful plushness, um, uh, to it texturally, and, um, I'm going to, uh, quote, uh, Julia Harding, who's a master of wine, works for Château Robinson, um, is, is, uh, uh, badass, um, you know, uh, female, uh, wine commentator, um, you know, uh, and, and, you know, we're huge fans, but, uh, she writes really beautifully about the tannins on this wine, and she loves Peloponnesian wine, she said The tannins are remarkable; they can be soft and velvety, even when the wines are young, uh, and yet they still provide structure and remain positive and smooth over a long period.

It's as if they emerge from the womb smiling at the wine drinker, and yet have surprising staying power. And, you know, again, for that notion of the twice-formed god Dionysus, um, emerging from his father's thigh, you know, I like that image of, uh, you know, the tannins emerging, uh, from the glass fully formed, but still capable of aging; um, you know, I think there's something poetic about that all. Um, we're going to get to questions, um, you know, thank you all for, for hanging out, uh, this long with us on what is, uh, a really beautiful day, uh, in Washington, D.C., uh, at the very least, um, it's been a joy to spend, uh, 20 Sundays with you, it's been a joy to spend this 20th, uh, Sunday with you for the sake of Peloponnesian wines, um, you know, I, I love this topic, I encourage you to pursue it, uh, more fully, uh, the Greeks have, you know, really amazing words, philoxenia, um, which is this,  it literally means kind of love of foreigners, but this love that they bring to the culture of hospitality, um, Which I always felt when I was at Comey, um, you know, before, um, you know, Greek owner, and, you know, which I have tried to embrace as my own for the sake of those that come through our own doors, um, which is, you know, more sorely needed, um, these days than it ever has been, so, um, you know, let us toast to that, let us toast to, uh, the Greek wine industry, um, you know, embracing its history, um, and, um, you know, kind of, uh, merging, uh, fully formed and smiling into the modern era, as always, alone together, cheers. Dan, that's good, it's showing really well today. Um, what do you got for me, uh, for the sake of questions?

Um, to start off, can we just talk a little bit about the export market in Greece, and was it because of after World War II that we haven't really seen Greek wines emerging on our market, or has it just because of their infancy in the modern winemaking? Um, it has more to do with their infancy, um, so, um, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, so, I think, you know, there are a lot of export markets that are, like, you know, kind of ethnic, um, you know, so I get, um, uh, this wine from Eclecticon is the importer, um, and they bring in, um, they've actually focused on more kind of, like, natural leaning, uh, Greek wines, um, uh, for very forward thinking, but, um, you know, that's only, um, you know, been the case within the last few decades.

I think, like, you know, Skouras is a very, representative of that, like, latest generation, but, you know, kind of, like, more classically representative would be, like, you know, the Semele, which I get, um, you know, through Athene, and, and, you know, they're representing Greek producers that, you know, would see representation, you know, at Greek restaurants, so you're looking at, you know, people that are looking to sell Greek, Greek wine to Greek restaurants, you know, as kind of, like, an ethnic product, um, and, you know, sadly, the wine didn't break out of that, you know, niche until recently, but, you know, I think one of the wonderful things about American wine drinking culture is that, you know, America sometimes is this, place with no memory, um, you know, Fitzgerald talks about that, you know, it's like the, the green light, you know, it's this idea that, you know, um, there is, you know, always future and no past here, and I think we are much willing, more willing to take on chances when it comes to emerging wine regions than they are in, like, You know, Britain or, you know, other, you know, kind of, uh, European wine markets where they want to know that, you know, there is, um, you know, prestige, you know, attached to a product, so I would say that we have been earlier adopters of Greek wine and earlier champions of Greek wine than, than other, um, you know, markets outside of Greece, but, you know, there's much, you know, um, you know, further to go.

Um, you know, I think, in fact, there hasn't been a ton of Greek wine, you know, here domestically, it speaks more to, you know, a modern infrastructure not developing in Greece, um, until, you know, really the 90s, um, you know, that's the narrative more than anything else, um, but, you know, I think it has proceeded at pace, and, and I, I think people increasingly are, are, you know, seeking it out, um, you know, not as a mere novelty, but as, you know, something that, you know, should be appreciated on par with any other, you know, classical wine culture, and, you know, to drink a wine like the old Monolithos, what we, we pay, so this is $22, you know, through, through our store, you know, this is, as, you know, has age, um, you know, it has, um, you know, 50 years almost under leaf, um, it is made in, you know, A very sustainable fashion, you know.

They're not certified organic, but the viticulture is, is wholly, uh, sustainable, and, you know, it's a, you know, kind of an artisanal product for the sake of family making it, you know, um, this, this doesn't, like, a $22 bottle of 2015, you know, wine like this doesn't exist in Burgundy, um, you know, it doesn't exist in Napa, um, uh, and, and that's because it's Greek, and that's because it's Arihtico, and not, you know, Cabernet Sauvignon or Pinot Noir, and, and, you know, for me, like, I would drink this, you know, 10 times over, um, you know, before, you know, I drank Napa Cab at twice the price. Do you also think that that's a reflection of something like Retsina being on the market, where, as Americans, we had maybe one identifier for entire countries?

Yeah, I think, I think there's something to that, so I, I think that, you know, I feel like the Retsina stigma is, is a generational thing. I don't know that, um, you know, people, you know, I'm almost 40, but I don't know people that have been traveling to Greece that are my age maybe have that stigma as much as people, you know, a generation ago had that stigma. Um, it should be said that, like, the Retsina people were drinking a generation ago really sucked, you know, it was a cynical wine, it was made at scale, you know, there was a shit, there was, like, you know, a lot more, like, many times over, more resonant than, you know, uh, there is now, um, you know, so there, there's a reason to be stigmatized by that wine, um, you know, but, you know, that said, I think, you know, uh, Greece is, is emerging out of that.

Um, you know, stigma, um, and, and I, I don't, I could be wrong, but I don't think that, you know, people, um, that are, you know, in their 20s think of Greek wine that way. Um, I don't think they have the same associations because I think, you know, the Greek wine market has come far enough that, you know, um, Retsina isn't the only thing on the market. You know, people are, are, you know, um, just as inundated and familiar with Assyrtiko or Malagousia or, you know, any other of the native Greek, you know, uh, grapes that have, um, you know, come to the fore, um, you know, and deservedly so. And I feel like I was raised by, like, all the nerdy bartenders in the city, and we kind of think of it more as, like, a vermouth and play with it in cocktails, and so, yeah, the appreciation for it, but I've always tried to, like, couch it as, like, think of it as a specialty spirit.

It's like a vermouth and not a fortified wine. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and we have, you know, some amazing, um, great, um, great, um, great, um, great, um, great, um, great, you know, professionals in the city, like people like Jeff Vale, um, you know, uh, that, you know, have worked with Retina, you know, in cocktails, and it should be said that, like, you know, uh, for the sake of Homerism, like, you know, D.C. Is, is, you know, kind of like Greece in the sense that, you know, as a wine market, like, we were kind of late to the party, you know, uh, culinarily in terms of the wines that we served, you know, it was more of a steakhouse, Cali cab recently, you know, that's not to say that there weren't, you know, people doing amazing things, and, um, you know, forwarding the cause of, you know, um, interesting food and drink here, uh, but, you know, as a larger scene, you know, it's really D.C.

has really emerged within the last couple decades, and cocktail culture came way before wine culture here, um, and, you know, there were, you know, really, like, awesome bartenders, you know, kind of playing around with Retina as a fun flavor, um, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, way before, um, you know, nerdy some types like me were, you know, thinking about it as a, um, standalone wine, and then there are other Greek spirits like that, you know, um, you know, I, I think about, um, you know, uh, Uza that way, I think about Mastija, um, that way, so, um, you know, there's just a lot of, like, really interesting products of that culture that are kind of, you know, really fun to play with.

Awesome, kind of wrapping up some of the questions, um, but could you, just briefly talk about different language that we could use when we're talking about tannins, whether they're, like, chewy tannins, or crunchy, or velvety? So, I debated, you know, uh, taking this really far down a, um, you know, what are tannins, uh, what is oak, kind of black hole, but that feels like a, another lesson entirely, and we'll get to Rioja eventually once the weather gets colder, and it feels like tailor-made for that, but, um, I did some reading, and I have some, some material for that sake, so. Uh, tannins are long chain polymers. Um, they're derived, um, from a variety of sources for the sake of wine.

Um, they're derived from, uh, uh, the, the grape, uh, and vine itself, and they're derived from, uh, the oak, um, as well. So, um, tannins, um, are phenolic compounds, long chain polymers, um, for plants, they're kind of an evolutionary healing and defense mechanism. Um, you know, they break down proteins, um, which is why in your saliva, they bond to, um, the vegan, uh, benefits, components in your saliva that have the effect of drying things out. They also bond to component fatty molecules in steak and do the same fabulous dance for the sake of pairing. But in fruit, as it ripens, they have the effect of resolving as fruit ripens so that animals are less likely to want to drink harshly astringent and tannic fruit before it has a chance to ripen and evolve.

But tannins in wine come from the seeds, stems, and skins of the grapes, and then they come from oak barrels as well. And, you know, people say that the tannins, particularly from the skins of grapes, have a different quality than tannins from oak. I've always had a trouble, I've always had, you know, physiological trouble in tasting just turning that, but people will say that skin tannins register in your gums, whereas seed tannins, you know, register, or rather oak tannins register elsewhere on your palate. It should be said that all tannins are not equal. Some grapes have softer tannins than others, which is to say that the tannins are either polymerized and longer and have less reactive surface area. So, you know, they have less power to bind with those proteins than others.

Ioretico actually is like relatively thin-skinned. It's relatively less tannic, particularly as it ripens, than other grapes. So, I find tannins very soft in a really fabulous kind of way. And, you know, I had that, you know, quote from Julie Harding, and, you know, she talked about those tannins being remarkable. But as tannins age on a wine, you know, they tend to precipitate out. So, the long-chain polymers get longer, but as they get longer, they have less reactive surface, kind of counterintuitively. So, they tend to precipitate out of the wine. So, they tend to precipitate out of the wine. So, they tend to precipitate out of the wine. So, they tend to precipitate out of the wine. So, they tend to precipitate out of the wine.

So, they tend to precipitate out of the wine, which explains why there's, partly, why there's more sediment in older wine. And so older wine tends to be like more luxuriant and have softer tannins than younger wine. Well, one of the great appeals of drinking old wine is that sensual, velvety pleasure. And, you know, that skin contact piece, you know, that textural piece, that sensual piece of drinking wine I think is something that we don't explore enough. People talk a lot about tasting notes when it comes to the quality of fruit in a wine, the quality of earth, their spice, but they don't talk about, you know, that tactile, you know, piece when it comes to enjoying and appreciating wine, and I think this is a great illustration of it.

You know, this doesn't really have any tannins to speak of, you know, George's wine. This does, but they're evolved in this really fabulous way, you know, that feels luxurious, and, you know, it's like younger and older selves, you know, in a really, you know, kind of, you know, profound evolution that's, you know, for me, like, kind of fun to trace. What else you got, Tim? Last question. Folks are wondering if we could just use Reveler's Hour for our own drinking game Olympics. Let's say, you know, Greek wine. Oh, wow. Like a little clip cut. Yeah. A little, like, the dice roll game. I don't know. Yeah, so it appeals to me, you know, on multiple levels that, you know, there are certain, you know, basic human needs.

So, you know, obviously, you know, drinking wine, appreciating wine, you're very, very Western, you know, kind of appreciation, you're very Western perspective, and, you know, I don't want to pretend that wine is at all essential, you know, for the sake of leading a meaningful life. You know, obviously, I don't want to pretend that wine is at all essential, it's essential to me. But there are plenty of people that, you know, lead, you know, wonderful lives, and they don't drink a drop. There are plenty of people that have been burned by wine, and, you know, lead more meaningful lives for the sake of avoiding it. You know, but, you know, for me, in as much as you enjoy wine, there is a basic human need to make games around it, whether you're ancient Greek or, you know, modern Washingtonian.

And, you know, there's a timelessness of the human experience that I really enjoy for that. Brent Kroll and I have talked about, you know, some kind of, like, nerdy sommelier off, some kind of, like, you know, battle, you know, that we could carry out for charity's sake. And maybe we can incorporate ancient Greek drinking games around that. You know, Reveler's Hour, you know, for the sake of our name, does seem to lend itself to some kind of, you know, ancient Greek wine drinking Olympiad. So, you know, I would, embrace that. You know, I would love to see that for charity's sake. You know, I envision, you know, some kind of, like, symposium, like, Devon. You know, I apologize, but you probably have to see me in some kind of, like, tunic, you know, throwing lees at a target for charity.

But, you know, I think that should absolutely happen. Just, you know, in keeping with, you know, the inspiration of our, our very name. But, yeah, yeah, I, you know, I like the idea that, you know, we're still drinking, you know, we're still finding fun in it. We're still celebrating, you know, learned discourse around the bottle, you know, but we're doing it through the miracle of the internet while socially isolated. So, you know, that feels like it couldn't be more human. So, at further rate, Zoe, we've got to get to service. Thank you so much for moderating, as always. Thank you, everyone at home. For participating. We love you all, and we're eternally grateful for your purpose.