Warming Up with Southern Rhône Reds: Welcoming Back Mary Taylor to Talk GSM Blends

Class transcript:

All right, welcome one and all. It is Sunday. It is a pleasure to have you all with us. We are joined once again by a friend of the pod, Mary Taylor, from her idyllic Connecticut estate. That looks like a stone fireplace behind you. Is that a Zoom background or is that an honest-to-God stone fireplace? Oh, wow! It's just a furnace, but I wish I had an in-house fireplace. I don't. Okay, well, it looks lovely. I must be the guest. What's that? It looks very appropriate, given that you're joining us from New England. We're thrilled to have you back, Mary, and we're thrilled to talk about the wines of the Southern Roanheer. For all of you joining us today, thank you, first and foremost, for taking the time out of your Sunday to make this a part of your week.

We have all sorts of options. First and foremost, we're going to be discussing Mary Taylor's very own Costier Rime. Costier essentially refers to the coast surrounding the ancient city of Nîmes, and Mary's going to talk a little bit about the history there. But it has been a center of winemaking for several thousand years. It doesn’t get, you know, the column inches of its neighbors like Châteauneuf or Gigantas, but it is every bit as noble and every bit in its own way capable of producing profoundly delicious wines. We’re going to talk a little bit about, you know, some of the giants of the region for the sake of Châteauneuf, but focus a little more on the lesser-known likes of Gigantas, the Baccarat, the Bacchus of the world.

And that’s very consistent with Mary's approach, because she loves the wines of the old world but more often than not finds those forgotten corners. You know, that produce wines that punch well above their weight and offer the kind of value that you can’t find in the more famous corners of the continent. So, I'm going to give folks a couple more minutes to join us here before we start in on the actual program. We have a bunch of wines in the mix, as I mentioned. Um, we have uh, Costier de Neen um, and that's from an individual grower, uh, Pierre Vidal, uh, bottled under Mary Taylor's label. Um, we have a white uh accompanying from the same village from the same Appalachian costier uh from a good friend of ours actually um, Michelle Gassier um, his uh family part of his family, his son resides uh in Washington DC uh literally a stone's throw away from the restaurant um, he and his wife uh who's an American had been here and uh wanted to shine a light on what he's doing uh as well as a fun foil uh for Mary's wine. And then uh, we have a flight of four um, from some of the most storied producers and um, you know most notable corners of the Southern Rhone. And we're thrilled to taste through those uh with you all as well. And once again thrilled to have Mary Taylor joining us uh for all of that.

Without further ado let us um, it's going to mute things here uh, let us uh, be the proper class here so um, first and foremost wanted to welcome back Mary Taylor Mary uh wave to the people say hi hi people hi thank you so much for joining us Mary um, I am going to try to keep my introductory remarks as brief as possible which means I'll probably wrap up at 5:30 but I'll try to. Keep it even briefer, uh, than that, uh, so that we can hear from Mary herself because, uh, she has been to the region, she has a wealth of experience with it, and, uh, really wants her to guide our discussion today, uh, a few orders of business to kick things off, first and foremost, um, we are, um, joined as always by Zoe Nystrom, Zoe, say hello to the people, hey everyone, um, Zoe is an essential part of our Revelers Hour, and Taylor Cook Family, uh, sadly she will be losing her leaving the uh the payroll as such at the end of this month, so uh, we are lucky enough to have her through the end of November on our proper staff, and we're going to be talking to her a little. Bit more about the staff, she'll be staying in uh the Wine School, orbit um as much as she's able uh thereafter but I'd be remiss if we didn't uh thank you Zoe uh for everything that you have uh meant to this place um, you know we wouldn't be where we were uh without you, we would not have you know survived intact um through pandemic uh that you as a part of this and um, you know you may be um moving on uh professionally uh but you know um personally uh you will always be a part of this and I'm going to always be a part um of this family um, we are celebrating uh uh Zoe uh with a special six packs of wine so Zoe do you want to tell them about the Six pack that you have created, um, as your bon voyage, yeah, absolutely.

Um, first of all, it's a completely mutual feeling; I wouldn't have been able to survive this year without everyone else, as well, um. But to celebrate this awesome community that we've made, um, I have some delicious bubbles: the Vina del Padre, the Lambrusco, that doesn't taste like a Lambrusco; it's a delicious bubble, um, and I'm going to be celebrating this year with more like a sparkling rosé. It's that Lambrusco de sobrera, um, I placed um, local wine: Linden Sauvignon Blanc via Vinius, super opulent, bone dry, raging acid all of the things we love, um, and The Los Bermejos. Rosado Um from the Canary Islands, which is super smoky flinty minerality that I just adore, and um comely Chalkberry, which is a rosé definitely the weirdest of the bunch uh not for the faint of heart, super super natty.

We have a Chianti Classico for my Italian roots, um the Falsina for sure, um and then Oslina, the Cabernet Sauvignon uh awesome uh and uh from Nisika Biella um Africa's first post-apartheid um black African uh winemaker um and you know Zoe. I have been inspired by you uh on many occasions uh throughout this pandemic uh I've been inspired by your uh perseverance um and um you know warmth um and just you know. Kind of willingness to put a brave face on things, uh, and you know also um your commitment to social justice and your commitment to, you know, seeking out wines um from uh people that often aren't uh readily represented um in the in the industry um you know, we again you know would not be the place that we are without you so um we'll miss you girl um at any rate uh, without further ado just a couple more things uh I want to welcome Lee Eubank if she's in the mix uh somewhere and I want to say a proper happy birthday to Jessica Beals uh who uh adorns our our workplaces with uh beautiful um wire sculptures and has been one of our um you know, that's all. Most devoted, uh, supporters so um, thank you all, uh, we are very lucky um to have the community that we that we do, great, uh, let's taste some wine, um, let's, uh, deliver some verse, uh, we're leaving, uh, you know Mary, muted there, and I want to, uh, I promise, uh, I keep this as brief as possible for the sake of, uh, you know our introductory, uh, sojourn, so I'm gonna try to deliver on that promise, uh, Mary um, and bring you to the mix, uh, as soon as I can, but we always begin with a bit of verse, and uh, that is true, uh, today as well, um, we're gonna kick things off with, uh, a poem, um, from uh, one of the foremost, uh, modern poets writing in the oxytocin language, that is. Inflected with you know kind of, uh, Catalan, uh, Spanish, um, Italian, um, you know kind of influences as well, um, and Frederick Mistral, um, wrote his masterpiece, Mireo, um, about, um, this kind of thwarted love, um, among, um, a young kind of Provençal couple, um, and he celebrates the charms of, uh, the Rhône and its river valley. This is an excerpt; he says, 'And all along the shore was ash and silver poplar made whose quarry trunks the river did reflect in giant limbs with wild vines all bedecked with ancient vines and torturous that up for their naughty clustered fruit. The waters o'er majestically calm but wearily and as he fain would'. Sleep, the Rhone passed by like some great veteran dying. He recalls music and feasting, and Avignon's halls and castles.

And profoundly sad is he to lose his name and waters in the sea. So we are tracing a noble uh river, one of France's most noble uh rivers, with charts its past uh path rather um uh from uh Switzerland just north of Lake Geneva, some 810 kilometers uh south uh into uh the Mediterranean. And um it uh divides uh north uh from south um uh and uh the northern region uh is dominated um by the great uh Syrah um but the southern region is dominated uh by the great uh Grenache uh which thrives in the uh sun-kissed kind of dustier. Corners of, uh, the Southern Rhône, uh, now, uh, the Southern Rhône in particular is, uh, synonymous uh with Côte du Rhône and Côte du Rhône is one of the largest uh designations of origin in the world that encompasses a region that supplies over three million hectoliters of wine which is you know more than many countries uh do um and the vast majority of that wine which is the most common wine in the world which is labeled Côte du Rhône uh which you see on supermarket shelves uh hails from uh the Southern Rhône um and there's a pyramid of quality here uh the Côte du Rhône kind of uh at the base um encompasses wines offered by 123 different Communes, um, and uh largely within the Southern Rhône region, um, those wines are dominated, uh, by the great Grenache, um, which, um, is a relatively thin-skinned varietal, actually doesn't make wines that are, uh, that are, uh, that are, uh, that are very inky colored, um, but it makes wines that are very high in alcohol, um, it laughs at drought, um, and it gives you know opulence of fruit and also this wonderful herbaceousness that the French, in um, you know, the Southern corners of the valley associate with the rig, the rig, this great uh Southern French word which connotes um this notion of uh wild uh herbs trampled underfoot and I think You know when we think of the Mediterranean, we largely think of you know these uh idyllic landscapes of the southern Rhône of Provence dominated by olive trees, lavender, and the great vine, and that really is the landscape that you find throughout uh the southern Rhône. Um, and Côte d'Azur is synonymous with that.

So, we're dealing with 123 communes uh as you go up the pyramid and get a little more prestigious. There are 95 communes that can lend their wine to Côte d'Azur village um, and then uh above that threshold there are um 18 individual communes that are uh that are uh that are uh that are uh. That are, uh, they can add their name to a hyphen so if you ever see a label that is um, uh, hyphenated 'Cote d'Arone insert name here; um, Sable being one of the most famous, uh, certainly others that I'm forgetting; um, those are among the 18 villages that you know have gained the right, uh, through their renown, uh, to hyphenate 'Cote d'Arone'; and then, uh, if you receive sufficient renown as a hyphenated offering, then you get to go the one-name route and, um, you know it's a threshold and and a stepping stone.

But most famously, Gigandasse has traipsed that path. In 1971, it went from Côte d'Aron Gigandasse to Prince Madonna status and just became Gigandasse. Baccarat kind of followed the same path in 1990, and several others have since. There are 17 of those. So the one named entities, the Gigandasse, the Baccarat, the Chateauneufs of the world, occupy the top of this tier. And under the French system, typically they are regulated the most stringently. So these are geographic designations of origin, but since the 1930s, they also are designations of origin that restrict viticultural practices, restrict yields, restrict the grapes that are allowed in the mix. And for the sake of the Southern Rhone chiefly, we are dealing with Grenache, Syrah and Mabedre as the stars of the show.

There are additional grapes that are allowed in villages and typically that is regulated commune by commune throughout this larger region. We are gonna begin our inquiry with a wine from Nimes, which is at the Southern extremists of the Southern Rhone is a hugely historically important city as such. Gigandasse, Baccarat, Oran, Chavignon, these are large villages as such. Nimes is a city that has thrived since it was the capital of a Gaulish. Kind of, you know, small, you know, it's kind of city state and was subdued by the Romans in 121. The Gauls themselves made wine. The Romans expanded upon that wine making and Augustus made Nimes, you know, one of the glories of his empire. And it is adorned by a gorgeous amphitheater, aqueducts and temples to this very day.

And also makes some of the most delicious wines in the region that punch well up above their weight for the sake of their value. I'm going to let Mary Taylor speak to the special appeal of Nimes and its history here, because we are starting with a wine from the coast here to Nimes. You can see it on the map here, just South of the village proper in green. Mary, thank you so much for joining us. Again, I kept it at 15 minutes victory. I just wanted to kind of give the folks, first and foremost, a sense of how you operate. Because, you know, I think people in the States are used to this kind of modality whereby, you know, you know, for the sake of, you know, Michel Gossier, they see Domaine Gossier.

And in this case, you know, this corresponds to what we typically think of domain bottled wine. So Michel Gossier and his family, you know, they own the vineyards, they make the wine, they bring it to us. You don't work that way, Mary. So your name is on the label here. And we love your minimalist labels. They're very beautiful. But this bloke, Pierre Vidal, his name's on here, too. And then, you know, we have the Costiere de Nimes, which is the designation of origin. That's the point of origin for this wine. You know, what gives? How do you operate, Mary? Hi. And I just have to excuse myself. I'm in my pajamas. I was just in the bathtub binge watching The Crown season. Victory! Oh, my gosh. So amazing. Hi.

So, yeah, the way I work is no different from other importers. If you look at a bottle and you flip the bottle around, you'll see a name on it. Maybe it's Rosenthal Wine Merchants. Instead of putting my name on the back, I opted to put it on the front. That was kind of, and it's not because, and people ask, who is this woman? Who does she think she is? Egomaniac. And our response is always like, did you ever question? Who Louis Latour thought he was putting his name on a bottle? But anyway, but so I, I had some insight. So I've been on every side of the wine business from auctions to, you know, sommelier, everything.

And one thing I noticed is that Americans, maybe not this crowd, but a lot of Americans, most, 99.9% are really confused about wine, whereas they can speak eloquently about cheese. And so that was always my thought. Like, why is wine so complicated? So I did kind of this whole research and, and I realized that like, maybe, I mean, people feel really safe within the confines of a brand. And I know that sounds really commercial, but my intention is to get the wine out to people. And so, and make it easy to try and buy things that they might otherwise not know what it is. I don't know. I don't know. So once people kind of get into my brand, maybe they'll try things that will go wrong.

Maybe they'll go undrunk, you know, or they'll change the name to like just the varietal or they're cheaping it up or whatever. So I just streamlined my packaging because, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's just easier to find. So that's what I do. I import the wine like anyone else. I don't make it. I'm not even remotely talented at wine making. I'm really good at wine drinking and tasting. So that's my, my superpower. Did you drink anything while you were watching The Crown or? No. No, I have to confess. I'm having a sour. It's sort of a cranberry tinge sour. It's Sunday. I'm on break, you know. I only drink wine six days a week. Yeah. So I lived in Burgundy for some years and I actually did harvest in the Northern Rhone with Yves Cuiron.

Yeah? I love those wines. Yeah. There's one vineyard called Le Vertige because it's so vertiginous. It's so steep. And you had to like crawl, hold someone's hand, figure out how to snip and grab a bunch of grapes and throw them back. And it was quite a feat. It was actually fascinating. But Burgundy, after some years, you know, you get depressed and you read like Zola novels. And in Burgundy, there's a cloud cover all of the time. But when you drive to the Southern Rhone, somewhere below Lyon. And below the Northern Rhone. Around where you're in Cournasse on the highway. There's a, there's full sunshine. And that's why the Southern Rhone, it's like this incredible area for grape growing. Oh, there's Pierre. Yeah, it's just incredible for grape growing with the sunshine.

But the thing that makes it really interesting is the Mistral wind. And you mentioned, oh yeah, your poet was Mistral. But it sort of, it kind of comes from the word misery. Because it's a hundred years old. It's a hundred and fifty days out of the year. It's a 70 mile an hour wind. You know, people always say like, 'Is the Mistral out today?' But it keeps the grapes from developing rot and it keeps them cool. So they're not, you know, just over, you know, they're just, it's not all sunshine and heat. They need some coolness. And so they have beautiful acidity. And so, yeah. It also helps a lot for disease pressure because you get, you know, what moisture you get on the grapes. You know, quickly is dried out.

So, you know, in a region, you know, like Virginia, for example, you know, they don't have, you know, the Mistral blowing. And because of that, you know, the grapes will start to, you know, rot on the vine. But, you know, in the Rhone, you know, even when, you know, the rain comes, things, you know, dry out pretty, pretty quickly. So it's very much easier there to work, you know, in a more kind of non-interventionist organic style, you know, without, you know, pesticides and so forth. You know, then it is some other corners of the world. Indeed. So much. But so, yeah. So I just love the flavor. So kind of, you know, what you were mentioning about the Garigue, like that is typical to this area, unlike anywhere else.

You can't produce that level of terroir by just growing Grenache somewhere and making it like balanced and whatnot. I mean, there is a terroir flavor. And I think that that really, I love context and I love history. And Neem itself. It's cool because like modern day Neem is like this working class, you know, French peasant style city where, you know, it's all about textile mills. And of course, Denim is denim. Yep. There's your amphitheater. And it's on the river, the Gard. So in 1986, the vineyards here were actually of table wine status. And they were called Costier de Gard. And they changed that when they got Appalachian status. Costier de Neem. Unfortunately, they didn't police the yields that much. So Costier de Neem was like Beaujolais and other things was associated with like kind of cheap, high yield juice.

And it got like Planck status. So like you used to see a lot of rosé. Hold the phone for a second, Mary. On the etymological front. You're telling me that denim... What? So the jeans I'm wearing, you know, owe their existence to some extent from the wine I'm drinking. Well, from the city near the wine you're drinking. That's very cool. I had no idea. Yeah. If anything starts with a D-E, look at the next word because it usually means of this place. So, yeah. So Neem has all this old history. So, yeah, we have the Greeks brought grapes here in the fourth century B.C. Then it was this big part of the Rome. When Rome and Gaul kind of coexisted, Rome was the south part of France. And they really developed.

And then, of course, the Pope lived there. And that became the new summer palace of the Pope. So they drank a lot. I mean, what else are you going to do? So they loved great wine. So that's why Châteauneuf-du-Pape gets, you know, this high status. But they were drinking wine from all over the region. In fact, there was a lot more vineyards planted here. It's just hard to believe because when you go there, there's vineyards all the way out to the street. I mean, they're just everywhere. But Phylloxera did a number. And, you know, per capita consumption in France actually went kind of down. It used to be people would drink jugs and jugs of wine every day. But I think the quality went way up.

So here, so Côte-sur-Denis, it's actually on the side of the Gard River. That connects it to the Languedoc wine region. And then in 98, they appealed that. And they said our wines are so much more stylistically similar to the Southern Rhone. And they actually, they were approved to move their region. So who knows? And because I think Languedoc just gets a little bit less of a marketability. We'll put it that way. And historically, Nimes was always attached to, you know, the Rhone regionally. And, you know, it's this, you know, for all of you, I'll pull up the map again. But the Languedoc is the region kind of to the south and west of the Rhone. And Nimes is the furthest kind of southern extension of the Rhone into the Languedoc.

You know, but, you know, historically, culturally, you know, it always kind of was tied to Avignon. You know, as Mary said. And, you know, surprisingly, even being, you know, in this southern corner of the region, you know, a lot of times the wines end up fresher than, you know, some of the wines, you know, of, you know, Chateauneuf or Vaccarat or other corner, Luberon, certainly. How do they manage that, Mary? How do they manage to move it? No, to maintain freshness in their wines, given how far south they are. They're the coolest of all the climates in the Southern Rhone. Isn't that interesting? Because they get the wind. It blows from the north part of the Mediterranean where it's a really warm area. You still get the winds are very intense.

And actually, temperature wise, they're cooler than because they're also like on the sea. And they're also, you know, I mean, like Chateauneuf is a lot more inland, but it's high and it's windy. They're very windy there. But so, yeah, there's just like it's a great terroir, but wines have to be made properly there. I mean, this is a big deal. So there's a lot of kind of wine being grown there. There is this one area called St. Gilles, which is the best of all the terroirs. It's the coolest. This is alluvial pebble. This is alluvial pebble soils. And they're really complex. It's like the mini, the mini pudding stones. And you have tons of They say, or so in doing my research, they say 'gray' or grey.

Or for the, for some of the alluvial pebbles. The which the what. Grey. My French is terrible. So it's probably just, just GÉ with the the backward accent S would be the For some of the local stones. Oh, maybe I don't know that stone word. Okay. I mean like the, so the most famous of the bunch, you know, kind of the iconic, you know, terroir of the region is in Châteauneuf. And is these massive Roundered. rounded river rocks that are called galley roulette um and that's like kind of like the most that's the gold standard of you know the kind of southern rhone terroir and you know you see you have these old gnarled bush vine grenache there's the ruins of the old castle which actually existed mostly intact until world war ii and the germans bombed it out uh you know very sadly but you know this is kind of like the archetype of the southern rhone kind of grenache heavy uh vineyard and um you know they have you know some of this you know as i understand in but the rocks are are significantly smaller uh than the you know larger rounded rocks um in in chateauneuf yeah it's kind of a um it's yeah just it's it's interesting i mean chateauneuf is that's what it's famous for those pudding stones and that's i think they're they're amazing for wine making because they retain heat and they let the vines kind of stay a little bit um warm and etc so this is pierre this is actually um this one is actually in chateauneuf in a vineyard that doesn't have a lot of i just googled uh pierre vidal and it wasn't there weren't any vineyard specific pictures of mary i'm sorry no i can't get a good picture he's very um private person um he's a so i can tell You so, I'm he went to the Jules Guillot school in Dijon, which is where like all the great winemakers go, like Christophe Ropert and everybody went there who's great. And so, he's really committed to like super, super fine wine. He makes um Châteauneuf at Domaine des Fin Roche, you know this one Fin's Roche, um that's his wife's family's property, and then he makes a whole bunch of those village wines, um you know people always say like oh, you should get a Côte d'Uron, people love Côte d'Uron, and I'm like, mark my words, never, I will never, I do like Bordeaux, I do, and bigger known appellations, but Côte d'Uron, I think is Like, it's not typical enough, I mean it's 50% of the wine from the Southern Rhone is called Côte d'Uron and I'm like, well what about Sable and Segure and Vinsobre and all the cool so he makes a lot of um, a lot of different um, different wines from different places, different appellations but he doesn't truck the grapes, so this is his like claim to fame. First of all, all the all the vines that he farms from here are in Saint-Gilles, um and they're basically right next to the Morgues de Grey which is this great winery I love, I don't know if you have those but I highly recommend finding Morgue de Gray, um, and so our our vines are like pretty Much in proximity to their vines, and Saint-Gilles was a uh, yeah, there you go.

Uh, Saint-Gilles was a monk, a priest who lived there in the like ninth century and built this beautiful um vineyard area and taught winemaking, and he's just sort of it's a great story and it's just a beautiful spot. See, can you? You can see it if you look; it's actually the the center of it is the lower right side, and there's Arl where um where uh Van Gogh, didn't he um like shoot himself in a in a field in Arl or something very sad it sounds it sounds very Van Gogh. Yeah, um I said, I should see Van Gogh's vines; I should see his vines; I should see his vines. I should see his vines, I should see his vines, I should see his vines, I should see his vines.

Gunplay than with uh you know uh self-inflicted night wounds, all right the ear yeah yeah what a brilliant man um so um so pierre doesn't truck the grapes because if you truck grapes all around the region you have to like dump a bunch of sulfur sulfur on them and they get bruised in the hot sun so he does something a little bit more garagist style um I met him through a mutual friend from Corsica who's a little nuts um and I wanted to work with him years ago and I was employed by another company I was this I was like a portfolio manager, I hate to. cut off, but I just hope that one day I can start a sentence. I met someone through a mutual friend in Corsica.

I feel like that's a way to begin any dialogue. I went to Corsica in 2002 and we were so poor, we slept on the beach. They come and raid the beaches at night and get rid of all the vagrants, so I mean it sounds romantic but you know it's it's interesting um but so uh yeah, so I met him and you know I wanted to work with him; I loved his wines. But when I was working for a company, they were so afraid that I was gonna like build an empire underneath them while they were paying me a salary and they didn't want to expand my range. of wines within their portfolio and that's what kicked me off to leave and go out on a limb and start my own business like this so i've waited he waited like four years for me but we always kept in touch and it was that was the third wine i ever bottled so i mean i have like 20 now so that was i've been with this costeer denim for a long time that's awesome yeah and i always go and do the blend um in like march uh we actually look at different um tanks um and we and we always do that in um he he uh ages the wines actually in chateauneuf he makes them in chateauneuf so we always do tank sample tasting um and so the 17 and 18 i think do you have two vintages is that what i understand oh we do and for the sake of those at home um you know it wasn't uh you know a brilliant uh you know idea and i probably was just a fact of availability so um it just so happened that you know in the midst of the several cases that you know we purchased for um this occasion uh the vintage switched over um but i thought it'd be a fun opportunity nonetheless to talk about the you know difference between the two vintages and the vintages and then you know uh all the more so to talk about you know how does pierre go about you know um making this wine so um you know uh grenache is the star of the show but this is a typical gsm blend you know i kind of sped past it but um you know you often hear wine nerds say gsm and and you know for those of you at home that is grenache syrah and mavedra and they each offer something you know for the sake of the whole you know grenache um you know gives you know fuller fruit gives us like wonderful fleshy tonality um you know syrah gives color um it gives acidity if it's not you know uh over cropping um and you know it can give you know structure and darker fruit um then you know typically grenache allows and then um mavedra is the most problematic of the bunch to work with the latest ripening Uh, but it gives you know this like wonderful minty herbaceousness, it gives these grapes um qualities um and uh, it gives you know which um, you know is important actually um for for these for these two grapes in that in region so they each have something to offer, and this is kind of a fun case in point because um, you see quite a bit of Syrah um in Costier um, and you know this has a healthy dose of the supporting players, so it's as I understand if the text to be believed, and I love your notes online um, but uh, 60 Grenache and then uh, the remainder split between um, a veteran Syrah right, so for me, I love the horsey lavender qualities of Northern Rim Syrah, but the Southern Syrah, I don't like as much. I really i think I need a higher acid to go with all that sunshine, so you know I'm always happier to have a Grenache-heavy blend. So here we have Grenache, that's you know this is all Vinafide separately, the Grenache is unfiltered um and it's unoaked, um the Syrah and Mavedra are um oak they're oaked a little in the sun so it's not so much different from the um the second your barrel, so I have a little, this is the only wine I think I have that's oak, um but it's 40% of the blend is oaked. What are you drinking, Bill? Uh, I have uh the 2018, okay, yeah, so they're so different. Yeah, because I was I was actually Mary. I was curious to try it because I'd had the 2017, I haven't had the '17, I think until or since I tasted with you many moons ago. Oh wow, um, uh, and you know I am not the most um, uh kind of proficient uh note taker, but I have a decent memory for wine. But you know what I loved about this wine, at first glance was that I feel like it embodied exactly what I want out of a Southern red which is to say it had this you know generosity of fruit, you know, um, but there was something else there, so you know it's very easy to make a fruity wine, um, you know it is comparatively difficult to make a fruity wine that also you know has other you know dimensions of of flavor and you know this you know delivers that so you know um you know the 17 i think is a more savory wine um and you know more herbal wine and and then you know a little brine here this this has you know kind of uh you know more of like a a dried fruit you know kind of reduced fruit quality to it um but you know there's still this like um dried olive thing going on and as it opens up you get more of that like uh herbal leaf i really adore out of these wines when they're singing yeah for me the 17 which was a better vintage in the area um it's much more polished to me i get like It's just more sort of, um, like all kinds of integrated and refined somehow, and like it kind of reminds me of an old cello a little bit, um, but the 18 for me is more like crunchy, which to me a little bit more like for me it's like chewy, there's like a grandfatherly chewiness to it, you know. It's like yeah, it's like uh, you know, it's got this like a little bit of that like fruit leather thing going on, but not a bad way.

It's just like, uh, you know, something to sink your teeth into, one nonsensical yeah, I get a little the acidity sometimes, um, is like kind of higher than I would expect and then I get like a tiny touch of volatility which is cool, I guess it's fashionable. Um, but yeah, I mean this, these ones are super popular and the yielding of these parcels um so is pretty low. We keep the yields you know, he keeps the yields like down under around 40 um sulfur is low, and then it's actually all organic, so the '17 is 100% organic, and the '18 we used a little bit of fruit from a vineyard that isn't certified, so we can't put 'organic' on the label.

And I'm kind of not like a huge organic person in viticulture because um, I mean there's a huge philosophical debate in in France and in wine making circles. But I used to be uh the girlfriend of a wine grower and in Burgundy and I would write about wine back then and um, I'd always be talking about, like, Joe Drezner and organic, organic, organic, and he was like, 'stop it,' so we would have this debate, but I learned a lot about why he thought it was worse for the land to use that much copper and sulfur and that, like, if you did a very, very moderate treatment, sometimes it's better for the earth and for,  everything involved and for the wine itself to use a treatment instead of a whole bunch of copper so that was his argument all the time, so we had and I've heard this a lot and also, you know, you have to pay, you have to pay for that certification but and I think I find it too um, Mary, you know like it. Writing about wine, you know, drinking wine on the consumer side, you know, it's much easier to be it's much easier to kind of rigorously enforce philosophical purity whereas when you're, you know, working a vineyard making wine where the rubber meets the road you know you're dealing with realities in the vineyard that demand you know more aggressive interventions than you might you know easily concede if you were just thinking about things philosophically um and I just wanted to uh share your your copy because it's no doubt you're the one that writes all the website uh notes aren't you yeah, because I love the i love the copy for this particular uh bottle uh if you could bottle all the romance of summer in the south of france the dazzling sunlight of a saison painting and the world of wine and the world of wine and the world of wine and the world of wine and the world of wine and the world of wine and the world of wine and the world of wine you'd wind up with something a bit like pierre vidal's beautiful expression of the coastier name appellation uh i think that's that's you know really evocative and lovely um and i will say you know for me too there's this like wonderful floral um you know kind of quality uh that uh emerges on the the Finish uh, with this wine. And again, you know that prettiness you know, and that that lift you know, is what these wines are about, because I think you know, with something like this, that's, you know, bigger, more substantive, that you know, is, is chewy or crunchy, however you qualify it, you know. You're always going to be struck by that at first, but you know, it's how the wine evolves, you know, over the course of its time on your palate, that ultimately, you know, um, you know, says more about about what it is, yeah, and yeah, I mean, I think these are complex wines.

I mean, they're, it's not like I'm trying to get like the best wine, I mean, I'm Trying to just show people what each appellation is or each appellation I work with is like you know, and so I'm not trying to say this is like the greatest of all the, but for me, for like value for price, for good farming, for authentic for this guy is like maybe my most perfectionist of all my winemakers. By the way, I see a bunch of comments and I just didn't understand like who how many people does she work with? I just wanted to because I is there anyone she won't work with um uh do you want to do you want to interject and uh throw out some questions for for Mary so I think it's a good question, you know how do you um do people reach you about?

You know, having you represent them, you know, uh, you said that uh, you came to Pierre through um, you know, this uh, you know, wild racy uh, Corsican connection, yeah, um, you know, uh, how do how do you search for, you know, the vignerons? Well, in this Corsican we're we're sort of friends but I found out he supported Marine Le Pen and so we're kind of not um that is a deal breaker, I know, um, but so uh, there's there's no like one way, I mean wine comes to me in so many different ways, in this case this was a somebody who looked me up years ago and we went out for coffee and um and I i liked the wines and they kept sending me samples every year and checking in and and i like wines a lot but then when i met him i was like oh my gosh like this guy is super serious and you know he almost was like i don't know if yeah i had to go like be interviewed to be able to work with him he's a little more like he's probably the most serious and rigid um but like for example i do like valence i think you've had that one before uh that's sophie's wine right sophie's oh yeah yeah and so i found sophie and um in angers at the loire valley wine fair and like i saw this woman with this big red wool sweater and like old style glasses and you know you just saw a farming woman like she's a goat farmer you know standing behind a table in the loire valley wine fair and i was like interesting so and i i looked over at her wine bottles and they were like hideously packaged like you are not a designer like but you're a great winemaker so i ended up tasting with her and um loving their vibe and i love the wines and they were calling it all um teren like gamay and stuff and i was like would you be willing to work with me but um instead of you know i'm not going to work with you i'm going to work with you i'm going to work with you teren pinot noir would you do uh like a aoc valence because your vines are in valence like why don't you and then she pulls out a valence Like a blended Valentine, you know again like terrible label and I was like, 'This is perfect,' so I just you know, I mean, I've developed.

And then when we visited, like we were the only our license plate was Parisian, um, from our rental car at the airport, and uh, like the whole village was like the Parisians ever you know, like, and little did they know what they were doing, and I was like, 'Oh my god, I'm going to work with you know. The Americans had arrived, and like nobody goes to this village, and like you know, we were in the restaurant, everyone comes up to the table to practice their English; it's a totally different world than snobby France. like Neem is a working-class city, um, this is like really the, the, they call it la France profound, it's like an insult, it means like the profound, it's like the rednecks, um, and that's how I found her; I find people in all there's this really funny, um, tasting uh group called APVSA, they're out of Montreal, and they like agents, um, they're they just set these things, these tastings up for growers that don't have importers in America, and they're like, you know, every six months, New York, Los Angeles, you know, wherever, Chicago, um, I don't know if they do DC, but it's like, I feel like we're not, we're not sufficiently cool; well, it's like Yeah, well it's the sweetest bunch of like, like just innocent independent family growers, and I've met like four of my growers with this group, and like in New York, you know, in pre-pandemic days there was like 50 tastings a week, like the buyers were overwhelmed with choice, and like nobody would go to these so I could walk into a room without seeing like my customers in the room and like I could taste the room and get to know people, like three or four people would be in the room at the same time, like nobody was there, I never had to wait, I could connect with these growers, and so I found them, that's actually how I found them, I found them. I found them, I found them, I found them, my first wines which are the Bordeaux Blanc and Rouge. But you know, and then like just I love wine fairs like, and I love the really regional ones like the Passé du Vin Jaune in the Jura, when they pierce the seven-year Vin Jaune barrel - that's a festival!

And no Americans are there, because I was like, in a winemaking family for a bit in France, um, I you know got to go to all these things and we'd go into all these cellars and that's all we did for years is taste, taste, taste. He was actually from uh Mont Louis in the Loire Valley but he lived, we lived together in Bourg-en-Bresse so I had this And he had a whole big opinion about a lot of things, and I think he's one of the great winemakers in the world still. Um, Domaine de Croix, I don't know if you ground crew sells them up here, I don't know if you've seen those. I'm not good with Burgundies and Miasma, I'm I'm not I'm not as good with it as I'd like to be.

Um, well we can you know the wine is so interesting because it's like there's so many the science and history and language, it was just so cool. Um, but yeah, so we would just go to all these places and then I had a wine store in lower Manhattan, I didn't own it, uh, bought for it for three years and my selections then were like all Italian. like i had a 90 italian store and i got really really really obsessed with italy so like i've had you know i've been in the business since 92 um started in cheese so i've kind of kicked the tires of the wine business um more than most so it's really pretty easy to find i just found a um i just found a navarra producer who i'm so excited about and he where did i find oh i met him is that probably the picuda prieto or oh no it's the it's navarra so it's actually a grenache okay it is unoaked and it's so so beautiful it was like the dream i found and we're working together so that's coming um we do i do a you know i just have them send me a bottle Is olive oil, and it shows up at my door, and I wait three days, crack it, and there it is. Um, so yeah, that's how I found my growers. And I haven't really broken up with anyone. Um, I love the people I work with. Um, yeah, I haven't really. So you know, sometimes a cuvee or a vintage is a little less than I love, and I'll just like kind of take the pedal off the gas if I don't, you know, really love it.

Or if it's not good, I'll, you know, I haven't I had a lot of corked wines from the Doro in 2015, so they were like, 'We'll just send you 25 extra cases to make up for it.' And so, I mean, we're off that vintage and 16 is perfect because they fixed the problem which was the With the cork screws, so I apologize if anybody got a corked Doro, call me up, I'll replace it. But, um, yeah, that's basically how I work, like every other importer, you know? Just have a brand name on the label which all the hipsters um think I'm like commercial and cheesy and and I'm like, 'Yeah, well, hipsters, I might point out that you know Gallo and Constellation brands own like 90 percent of the wine business, like, and you're all fighting for a piece of pie.

Whereas most Americans are walking around not sure what's what and don't know if Sancerre is a place or grape, and um, and I want to make something with no capital and no overhead, and No investors, that um like basically white labeling the Appalachian system of all the things that are you know interesting and not expensive, and between like you know 10 and 20 bucks, and that's that's kind of my uh business model so there it is why not you know what appeals me about it is, is there's a level of democratization about it because you know you're taking something that's you know wildly obscure in terms of these designations of origin that most Americans aren't familiar with and you know I think most Americans struggle with the idea that you know on the continent people think about wine in terms of Designation of origin in terms of place, and then you know, so we have this thing that is Côciera Neems, but you know, it happens to be, you know, from these, you know, grapes because we're so varietally driven, you know, it's Grenache, Syrah. Mavedra um, and you know that's a lot to unpack, but you know if people try your wines and they like your house style, then you know there's a foot in the door and they can continue to look for the same labels and try some things that they might not have tried otherwise, and the barriers to entry are low because you know the price points are super affordable, so um, you know, there's definitely something to be said for that.

Um, yeah, we're going to speed through a few things. Uh, first of all, we're going to talk a little bit about the ovens; we talked about first time we were here, and then we're going to get a little bit down on the coming proposition here. And then we're going to talk about what's starting to come out of here, you know, kind of portion of the Algerian independence struggle, left and established a new set of vineyards in Costier. And he runs the show there. His wife is American. These are, sorry, that's his daughter. I made that really weird for Michel. I apologize. His wife is here. At any rate, and they're lovely, lovely people. They're friends of the restaurant. Their son lives in Mount Pleasant and represents their wines on the side of the Atlantic.

I love the whites in Costier. They have, you know, some of the freshness that, you know, Mary talked about. This particular offering is Grenache Blanc heavy. And, you know, in as much as the reds are kitchen sink blank blend of varietals, the whites tend to be as well. And this has this kind of forward fruitiness, but elegance nonetheless, that I think is really lovely. And the name Notre Pais is this, you know, our land. Our country, you know, is this idea of encapsulating the place in a single wine. And then we have a bunch of, you know, kind of single Appalachian-driven wines. And Zoe, I promise we'll get to you. And Mary, please feel free to offer color commentary if you know these estates and you want to offer up tasting notes.

And, you know, I wanted to, you know, feature some of my favorite wines from the region. And, you know, something that we haven't kind of addressed, talked about yet is, you know, whether you're taking a set of grapes and, you know, de-stemming them. So in the case of the Costier Nimes that we just drank, all the grapes are de-stemmed. And there's this like real, you know, kind of purity of fruit to the wine. Whereas for the sake of the first couple of wines in the flight, the Châteauneuf and the Gigandasse, you're dealing with, you know, avowed traditionalists who are not de-stemming in the least. So the first one is a Châteauneuf-du-Pape. I'm from Domaine de Pégal. And this is from a really amazing woman, Laurence Ferroc.

She's a total, yeah, she's just a really cool lady. Makes really lovely, very traditional wines. And she tells a story, the origin story of her domain as follows: My father, my grandfather was French going back many generations. My mother's parents were from Tuscany. They moved to Avignon to find work. My father's mother came to Chateauneuf, worked as a cleaner, as a waitress, where she met my grandfather. My grandmother was ambitious and started working in the vineyards and step-by-step began buying vines. She started with nothing, but when she died, she had 22 hectares, which is 54 acres, which is a shit ton of land, should be said, in one of the most famous corners of France. They were divided between her four children. Laurence's father got five hectares.

Laurence inspired her father actually to break with his siblings and to make wine on his own beginning in the 80s. And she really wanted to, she studied winemaking and is kind of classified as this real traditionalist within Chateauneuf. And I love, you know, the unabashed kind of structure of her wines. Zoe, for the sake of tasting notes on this one, you know, the Chateauneuf from, this is our Cuvée Tradition 2017, 100% whole cluster. So all the stems in the mix for the sake of vinification. No, you know, demonstrable oak influence, all neutral fooder. What did you get on the palate for the sake of this one, Zoe? I really enjoyed the texture of this wine. It's super chewy, super gritty, and just a super persistent finish.

I really like how meaty the wine is as well. And I have more dried fruit complexity. So I really like the texture of this wine. It's a lot of acidity and a lot of dried florals that are quite pretty on the nose. And it's definitely more like black fruit leaning. What is the sapage again on this, Bill? So a very good question, Zoe. This is 80% Grenache. And then a hodgepodge of the other varietals. A fun parlor game at all at home that we haven't played with you all. Famously, there are 18 or 13 rather varietals allowed in Châteauneuf. I think they've recently expanded that to encompass both red. Kind of gray and white versions of different varietals, but these are the famous 13 and their preponderance in the region.

It is a very nerdy psalm parlor game to ask someone to name them all by memory, but, you know, kind of indicative of the place that Grenache holds in the region as the, you know, real backbone of a lot of these blends, and then Sra Morvedra are the cheap kind of character actors in the mix, and then, you know, you have a bunch of extras aside from that. Mary, you were nodding along a lot. I imagine that you've had these wines before. What do you like about them? Well, I used to sell these wines, and I know Laurence pretty well. Way back, what, like in 2009, I was working for the company that distributed her wines. I just mean what you said, I think it's amazing.

I love the whole cluster, just like in Burgundy, drinking Dujac, like the old Dujac and Reyss, and I love the way she makes the wine. I love the way she makes the wine. I love the way she makes the wine. I think whole cluster is awesome, and I think stems are awesome, and I love the earthiness, and I'm never disappointed with her wines. They don't, you know, they don't, doesn't she have one like the Capo or something, the top? Yeah. Yeah, like that one is a little bit like, whoa, like I like kind of the, this range, it's a little bit, I think it has more like gastronomic qualities, and I want to, it's a little bit more of a, it's a little bit more of a, it's a little bit more sort of makes my mouth water, and I want to eat with that.

Yeah, I think, I just think they're elegant and red-fruited, and she has a great touch, and she's a super, super badass, like she's, she's like the, when she walks into a room, everybody's like, wow, like she's just a powerful woman. I love her, so yeah. Yeah, yeah, and you, you get a sense of that, you know, just in, in reading about her, and then, you know, yeah, she seems like a, a bit of a bon vivant, and you know, the finest, you know, the finest, you know, the finest, you know, the finest, you know, the finest, you know, possible sense, and for me, what I really love about these wines when they're, they're on, and what I love about, you know, this notion of whole cluster, so again, you know, with most modern wines, when people make a red wine, they de-stem, and you know, historically, that never would have been the case, because people didn't have machines that were capable of it, but taking the grapes off the stem makes something that has less of that, you know, tannic grip that people generally don't like, but it can rob a wine of texture, It can rob a wine of, you know, these, like, more savory, herbaceous, qualities that, you know, are very interesting to those of us that love the technique, and, you know, kind of love something more savory out of their wines, and, you know, what I love about it in Rhone Reds, in Grenache in particular, is, is the mouthfeel of it, and the way the wines evolve as they age, and, and, you know, this is a wine that's delicious, and it resonates, you know, on the nose, but the, the texture, the feel of it, you know, is, is a different experience, you know, the sensuality of it, you know, across the palate is, is equally enjoyable, And then we have another, so the next estate is among my favorite wines in the world. I, I have loved, adored this wine for a long time, and, and, you know, you know, will continue to sell it till the day I die. It should be said that they make a rosé, that is the closest thing I've ever had to weed in wine form, when in some vintages, it smells like a dispensary, you know, just, you know, like, you know, putting your bag, you know, putting your nose in a bag of,  and it's like, the, it's like, if you, that Grig, we were talking about earlier, if you, you know, kind of, like, distilled that into some essence, you know, it is, it is that, they are about a celebrance of that whole cluster methodology as well, there are three generations going on strong, female owned and operated, so this estate's called Gourdes Chalet, it is in Gigondas, Gigondas is adjacent to Chateauneuf, Avignon, but it is at elevation, and it should be said that there is this very famous rock formation, it's called the Danty de Montmirail, and, and I, I apologize, Mary, because I know you actually speak French, and, and, you know, regular viewers will know that my French is terrible, but it is, Danty refers to tea, and it's, you know, this beautiful mountain range, and they love to say in Gigondas, look down on Chateauneuf, and the cool thing about Chateauneuf, about Gigondas is the harvest is several weeks, a couple weeks, you know, several, can be several weeks later than it is in Chateauneuf, so there's a freshness about these wines that in certain vintages is lacking in Chateauneuf, and I, I think she can, I think, you know, Gourdes Chalet really leans into that, I, I love how herbal, you know, these wines are, they're, they're, you know, they have that fruit, but, you know, it's not always the first thing, would say about them. Zoe, for your sake, what are your tasting notes on this one? Yeah, I am, don't know if I, oh, am I, perfect, I thought I was muted, I didn't necessarily get the weed on this one, I'm one of the minty eucalyptus, there have been a lot of comments about weed of a different wine, but we'll get to the vine too later, I thought that this had some really nice, bright, juicy fruit, super exuberant, and that, like, generosity of fruit, like, went, like, completely to the end, it was still very nice and high-toned, I really enjoyed that acidity with how bombastic that fruit is, it's, like, the perfect gigandasse for me. It should be said, Zoe, I was, I was talking more about the rosé, the, this one resonates more on, like, a crunchy black peppercorn, like a sake-up-lobe, you know, kind of place, than, than the, the marijuana, but, you know, at any rate, Mary, I know that you are familiar with this estate as well, you know, how do you feel about Gigandasse vis-à-vis Châteauneuf and Gordes Alley?

Yeah, I mean, I think that gigandasse is a great place to find value, I think that there's, the quality is similar, by the way, those don'ts, is, they, you can see them when you're driving on the highway, they're, like, poke out of the Alps, you know, yeah, those are, like, the foot, Alps Rhone foothills, yeah, I think there's, I think that there's some really, really high quality wineries in gigandasse, I think it's a great, I mean, there's, there's some wines out there, I mean, weirdly, those wines get closed out a lot, for some reason. You seem somewhat, you seem somewhat tepid, you seem reserved, you're holding back on gigandasse. No, I mean, I, you know, honestly, I have to tell you, honestly, I haven't been in a Southern Rhone kick for a really long time, so I have my Costi Al-Dinim, it's, you know, we, we do a lot of work but I really need to go back, like, I got kind of snooty and it was all about the Savoie and the Jura and Burgundy and the northern Rhone, like, I kind of, I used to be in love with gigandasse and Baccarat and Chateauneuf, kind of, I mean, I, I think, I think one of the greatest wines I ever had was a 1990, oh, God, the Cuvée Catalan from, from Chave, you know, this one, oh, yeah, the Hermitage, that was probably the best wine I've had from the Rhone in my life, but, oh, Clotopop, sorry, Clotopop and Chateauneuf, I'm, like, my brain has been exposed to too much wine for 30 years, but the 90 Clotopop, I think you kind of have to age, for me, like, Brunello and Chateauneuf and those big, big tannins, They're bruising, they're bruising wines and I think, you know, you're someone that values freshness in your wines, you know, and, you know, Châteauneuf in the southern Rhône in general doesn't always provide that, but what I do like about Gigandasse is it offers a little more. As a segue, we're moving, going to move on to, and, and I, I think maybe this is the, the dispensary kind of reference, but move on to the Ventoux. So Ventoux is this, they call it the Bald Mountain in France. It's a very famous stage of the Tour de France, it's a climb on Ventoux. I wanted to bring back the map and just give you an orientation, so Chateauneuf is in the heart here.

It's the confluence of all these, you know, rivers, the Rhone, and it's various tributaries, and, you know, those polished stones, the pudding stones, you know, were polished by, you know, the river and various, you know, stages of mountain formation and glaciation, but, you know, we had the Gigandasse, which is in green, and now we have the Ventoux, which is a massive mountain to the east. It's called the, the Giant of Provence. It's this limestone-capped peak, and they don't, you know, feature it every year in the Tour de France, but there's one of the most famous climbs in the Tour de France. We're drinking wine from Chateau Pestier, purchased by a family in the 70s, but an ancient estate. There's this major cooling influence in, in Ventoux, and so it's better terrain for Syrah than you would typically expect in the southern Rhone.

So this is a cuvée that's equally split between Syrah and Grenache, and then it has a shape, and it's, you know, a shit ton of new oak, so 50% new oak, 18 months, and then it's fully distemmed, and, and I, I wanted to feature it as such, as stylistically a foil for the other wines, because I, you know, in spite of myself, so, you know, you say, like, you know, 100% destemmed, you know, 50% new oak, and, you know, these are things that on their face, you know, typically I wouldn't, you know, find myself gravitating to, but, you know, again, oak as such, you know, destemming as such, you know, there's, there's no ill in it, you know, it's, it's all contextual, and, you know, if it makes sense for a particular terroir, if done well, then you can make something that's profoundly delicious, and Pasquier, Pasquier does that year in and year out, you know, I find for their wines, and, and they are, you know, very sustainable in the vineyard, and then all native yeast Which matters to me a lot for the sake of the vinification. Zoe, what did the commenters say about this one? This is the dispensary wine, for sure. A lot of those types of notes, a lot of; I get a little more barnyard than, than dispensary. Maybe we're going to different dispensaries, maybe that's the; I don't know, I was more distracted by, like, just that toasty vanilla, and how round everything was, and it almost gave this assumption of sweetness, but it really is that, like, perfect, smoky, sweet bacon fat that I love, love, love.

A lot of, like, sour, dark fruits, too, so it was kind of, like, balanced with that. Feels, it feels like the, I don't know, so they don't say what the percentage is, that it's, it's high altitude sites, and, and, you know, half century plus year old vines for both the Syrah and Grenache, they don't, you know, reveal the percentages of both, but for me, the Syrah is the real driver, you know, for the sake of this wine, you know, the Grenache, you know, lends, you know, fleshiness and body, definitely, so it doesn't taste like, you know, sabotage, but, you know, that bacon fat, that, you know, sun-dried black olive, you know, that is pure Syrah, you know, and it is, you know, the Syrah, you know, for the sake of the flavor profile, is, Is really the star of the, the show on this one, but, you know, I do get a new oak influence, but, you know, it's not; it's well integrated, you know, again, it doesn't feel disjointed.

I feel like the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, which is, you know, ultimately what we're all after for the sake of our wines. And then, I'll lastly, we have Bacchus; I'm really excited to include this one because it comes from, you know, this really iconic estate. And I reached out to Mary to, to kind of participate in this lesson, and wanted to know, you know, who, you know, should I reach out to, which one should I include? And it's actually really disappointing that a lot of the estates that she wanted us to feature aren't as well-represented in D.C. As I would like, and you know, I wanted to feature, you know, some of my old favorites for the sake of whole cluster, and but you know, wanted to find something from this particular family, so this is Reynaud, so you have Jacques Reynaud and Amélie Reynaud, grandfather and grandson, grandfather on the right, grandson on the left, they are the men behind Château Reyès, Reyes is the, one of the great names in Châteauneuf, but it kind of, it kind of transcends Châteauneuf, people think of those river stones in Châteauneuf, but fascinatingly enough, Reyes actually favors heavier clay soils and north-facing sites, and their wines don't taste like the Châteauneuf of popular imagination, you know, they are much more elegant, and much more, you know, dare I say Burgundian, than your typical, you know, Châteauneuf, and for the people that love them, that's what they love about them, they're hugely rare, hugely expensive. You know, I'm in the business and I think I've had them once and that's because I worked at a fine dining establishment and, you know, somebody was, you know, kind enough to give me a taste of the bottles they bought in for the sake of corkage.

This is a property that they own. It's just outside of Rockeraw. This is kind of like a village-level wine that they make. It's stupidly good. We have the 15 and the 14 in the mix. Their Cote d'Aron sells for, you know, $50, but it is worth every fucking penny, you know, so if you find these wines, just buy them. They're, you know, they're just great wines, you know, they happen to be from the Southern Rhone, but they exist in the pantheon of great wines. Mary, you know, what do you want to say about, you know, these particular offerings? Yeah, so I mean, I worked in the auction circuit for a long time, so I saw a lot of these early on.

I think in the mid-90s, like Emile Renéau died, I think in like 1996 or something, and just like some great estates where the father was a complete artist and you know, sometimes the new generation takes over. I extend this to like Dujac, I think that happened a little bit, and La Pierre and Morgon, I think that happened. Yeah. um so the father was like this kind of um eccentric man a few some friends of mine went to this the the property you had to sort of call him up and um so there's a there's actually a famous story about that mary so uh we said that manuel knows famously famous for refusing appointments and even winery phone the winery phone tells callers that any messages will not be listened to so please try again later yeah i love that my friend chris who's a um he's an indian biochemist and he's in his um upper 60s and he's the most passionate wine person i know he has maybe four or five tasting dinners a week with like collectors and he's collected and these aren't necessarily wealthy people it's not about the prestige it's about the fascination so um he actually was able and they saw um i guess emmanuel i said emil that there's a lot of french guys with the name reno another um but he was poking his head out behind the curtain hiding from them but somehow you know they kind of just hung around and he finally came and they did so i'm actually this is an this is i'm reading directly from an article and it's it says that um jacques renaud was known to hide in the winery or be haunted i odd pine tree to avoid guests when they had arrived and and even his own importers right exactly and when he if you got into the cellar he'd give you a glass with no um base so you couldn't take notes or put down the glass he had like weird eccentricities um but the wines are just amazing and you have like the pinon and the fond salade and then the regular chateau reyes and then the chateau de tour the coteron um but i just think that they're like they're so outspoken they're so full of like the garigue but more than that like they're they're just magical wines i really if i was very wealthy i'd look at um every auction catalog and find older vintages and buy them all um highly recommended and you know as as would be fit you know people as you know kind of uh socially reticent as they are there's zero information available online about how these wines are made um there's obviously no new oak influence um you know there's no new oak influence um to us there's no new oak Influence the ones that are, uh, closer you know, I would be shocked if they're not harvesting significantly earlier than their neighbors, um, you know.

The I think there's a for those of you that have a flight a real stark difference between the color, um, in you know three ones that we had, the first two - at least 80, 80 plus Grenache, and then um, you know, Sera will bring more into the party and this this one looks comparatively ethereal. Um, I should be said there's no more better in the mix this is uh, uh, Grenache heavy, I would imagine the the mix. Um, again, Syrah is, is one of those spices that, you know, really resonates. And, and for me, um, I taste a lot of Syrah in this, uh, uh, you know, but the color, you know, fascinatingly enough is, is more indicative of something that is, you know, like cooler climate Grenache, um, which doesn't take on a ton of color.

So, you know, I'd be wildly curious to know what, uh, the, you know, exact blend is. Um, I would be equally surprised if that information was available anywhere. Um, and equally surprised if like the winemakers themselves actually had the information. Um, they're probably just tasting lots and not, you know, usually scientific about it. And they're just, you know, making wine the way people should make wine, which is to say, you know, guided by their palate. Um, you know, uh, but, you know, there's definitely like, you know, some whole cluster, but I'd be surprised if it's like entirely whole cluster. It's, it's, it's one of those wines so that, you know, just lives in the mystery. And, and it is, you know, I think the, to some extent, you know, even the house style, you know, trumps any regional imprint.

Um, and there there's magic about it in, in a really cool way. Uh, so do we have any, any, um, comments about this one or do you have any comments off yourself? Yeah, I absolutely love this wine. Of course. Um, there's been a lot of comments about how musty it is, or, um, a really good one is a 50-year-old candy box that's found in an old closet. Love that note. I feel like that should be a cartoon. Um, I get like a lot of like brick and clay. I think it's ethereal is what I, my first notes were. So I love that you said that, um, so much olive bright, chewy fruit. It's clearly like the fruit purity is just incredible.

I thought that it would be, I don't know, have a little bit more of those like secondary flavors and tertiary flavors coming in, but not really. Um, it did remind me of like dehydrated orange zest though. Um, and it had that like, almost like Christmassy spice to it that I love. Like a chocolate orange or, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. I could totally see that. Um, yeah. And it is, it's one of those wines that, um, you know, just continues to open up and reveal itself over time. And, um, you know, even in, it should be said with kind of like for the sake of these flights, sometimes I feel guilty because, you know, the worst thing you can do to a lot of these bottles and these aren't hugely old wines, you know, 2014, 2015, but you know, um, they're getting older and the worst thing you can do is open them, pour them into a small glass vessel and then, you know, send them out and do the, the world.

Uh, but you know, it's, they're showing, you know, really, really beautifully. Um, and, you know, honestly that that's why we continue to do it and, you know, try to pick wines that can endure as such, but, um, yeah, it's just, it, again, it's, you know, it bears the imprint of the Southern Rhone. I think, you know, it tastes, you know, unmistakably of like olive tapenade in a way that is hugely evocative. Um, but by the same token, you know, within the context of these four wines, it is singular, um, as well. And, and, and for me, that is, you know, that's the imprint of greatness in wine is, is something that, you know, tastes of a place, but, you know, has a singularity about it.

Um, and, you know, those are the experiences that will make you, you know, want to, you know, just spend more than you should for bottles and, you know, chase, chase the, you know, chase the unicorn. Um, you know, and, and I think once you taste that and. wine once you have you know that experience of of you know recognizing something you know that evokes place that is singular it's it's hard to it's really pernicious it's it's hard to it's hard to give that up um all right so uh so i know i know you must have more questions i want to toast everybody out because um uh that's what we do and thank mary again for joining us um uh it should be said that you know one of my uh favorite um you know we are in this you know unique um you know magical realist um you know going on a year moment uh you know uh globally um but it has forced upon us you know these you know hugely uh bizarre uh virtual interactions but i am hugely grateful that you know i've come to know uh someone uh like mary taylor uh much better than i would have otherwise um and you know uh we were smitten the moment we tasted with her um you know the first time that she got dragged along uh for a trade Business, but you know, um, by the same token, you know we've been, uh, hugely lucky to deepen that relationship so, uh, to that end, uh, cheers to you all right, so what else you have for us?

Last time you were on Mary, you spoke about um those 500 milliliter bottles for us, uh, for us to live alone and maybe don't want to do it. It should be no, it should be said, um, this is, this is a huge so, um, I was at home last night and my wife wasn't feeling as well and uh, I brought home a bottle of uh 10pa uh Bandeau Blanc, now it's hugely exciting because it's part of allocation and you know I'm in a treat myself mode where stuff I wouldn't normally bring home and, you know, it's I mean for those of you participating at home probably like a little while, but you know I'm in a treat in not a treat yourself room, so uh you know I've sort of sweetened my mood with some Stevia, so but basically.

Thanks, you know well, thanks for signing up to be a part of that. You know, we've got a lot of things are hard to do in this time and to really be able to physically enjoy this time, Vieira who you know, you told me earlier about like you have a wide selection to choose from - Hawaii album or other books, mixtape for example, or bands on the market, or kind of whatever that's gonna be, and support me, and hopefully that was helpful for you guys. I mean myself, that feels like gauche so I always, I always leave a glass but it's like a pathetic glass in the bottle, and my wife always gives me a hard time for it, so I love this idea of a uh a more responsible single serving when it comes to bottles of wine, yeah I'm getting really good at sucking back a full bottle, so not so great.

So um, yeah, the 500 mils would be super cool, uh it should be said too, we have um uh um Felipe Pato um who uh is a friend of the restaurant, she makes um uh this uh wine she calls Post Quirkus and she actually makes it in um so she's married to this like larger than life flemish dude and they make it in 500 milliliter bottles and one liter bottles and she says uh hers are the 500 500 milliliters and her husband's husband has the one liter bottles i like the i like the his and hers or i mean i don't want to gender that you know maybe you know there's a a different relationship where you know you know husband you know drinks less than the wife so you know c'est la vie but uh i think 500 milliliters a good single a more responsible single serving size and i hope that people are you know maybe like in this moment more willing to embrace alternative formats oh the cat uh so what else do you Have for us, what's your cat's name? Oh, she's far away.

He doesn't help me drink the wine though, so that's a problem. It does look like he has a cute little mustache, like a proper Frenchman, yeah. You give him do you give him tastes of wine? Mary I give my dog tastes of wine, you give him tastes of wine, Mary I give my dog tastes of wine. He sort of, he doesn't hate it as much as he used to, yeah, yeah. His mustache gets a lot of Hitler jokes, I hate to say it, but uh, yeah, yeah, um, yeah. We have a question about when you're working with the vintners with blending and how um that relationship is and how much input you put in, how much input the vigneron puts in.

And if you could just expand on that a little bit, yeah, um, you know, I usually do this trip in March every year, and I try to visit everyone, and I bring like some sommeliers, and I like to kind of bring people in for that to feel a little agency around the project. Um, we were just there in March; that was the last trip I ever took. Um, it's not you know, I mean they know we have like certain rules, like never ever, aromatic yeast, that I can't you know, they know that I want things crunchy, natural, authentic. It is really like honest and pure, and they we've had like deep conversations so you know, I kind of like, I'll go and like we have lunch.

And we do some blending, and we look at sort of like, you know, I tend to like a little bit higher acid and freshness than, you know, maybe they would expect. You know, I don't um, I'm trying to protect Americans against the like Americanization of everything. Um, and we i mean we'll do a little blend, but if I can't make it that March or something like it's no big deal. Um, they know, and I leave them to do it. I mean, I pick people who understand their their terroir, their geography, their winemaking. And they don't necessarily need me. I often, you know, to be honest, I don't always taste the vintage before I buy it. You know, I just trust.

Them so much after year after year that I just know that they know, um, what you know the wine should look like and you know the longest relationship I have is is in Bordeaux and I just buy the next one and I just buy the next one and I just buy the next one and I just buy the vintage as soon as I need it, um, without you know making them ship me a bottle or something like that. But yeah, I mean the blending is it's kind of largely symbolic, um, I'm not really on the ground; I'd love to go do a harvest, I'm thinking in Gaillac because it's just so historic and funky and interesting there.

Um, I haven't done a harvest in a really long time, I'm really like Here and doing business here, so and also harvest time is like the biggest time for an importer, you know it's our our big season - it's like a month before the distributor's big season and it's a month before the retailer's big season. So right now, like I'm cooling down a little bit, whereas um all of my clients are like hot, really really hot, and so you know, and you guys will be hot, I mean you're probably really just killing it um right now that's a great. Thank you Mary, that's a great segue. It should be said that for the uh folks that are still mixed, I did a terrible job shamelessly, I promised Jill my co-owner that I would shamelessly Self-promote the wine shop like at the outset, uh, but I didn't do that, but um, we're gonna be open on Tuesday, uh, for those of you that are listening, uh, you know within our bandwidth, um, which is to say that, um, by opening, I mean that I'll, I'll be here slinging wine if you want to stop by during the day, uh, for Thanksgiving, um, I'd love to help you find something, uh, to go with you know whatever the hell, uh, you happen to be eating, uh, on Thursday, uh, it has a Mary Taylor label and we re-upped, we also re-upped on all the Mary Taylor on all the Mary Taylor offered, it should be said, um, many of which, many most of which are are turkey-friendly, so Uh, and then if you're, you know, in DC proper and can't make it, uh, we're offering delivery on Wednesday, uh, as well, so that's the that's the shameless, uh, plug portion, uh, of our of our program, um, but yeah, like I don't think that wine exists at this intersection of multiple disciplines, and then you know when you know, and when you make a business out of it, it exists as the intersection of you know something that you would do for free and something that you have to make money off of um, and you know you know monetizing that passion is uh, uh, you know always always problematic I find but uh, you know hopefully uh, hopefully we can both find A way to do that, Mary, uh, so what else do you have for us?

I think that's about it in terms of questions unless there's any last questions. If you want to pop them down in the chat room if you have any questions right now, uh, groovy! So, do you do you have any you know final reflections on this tasting, having worked your way through the the wines? I feel like you got short shrift uh today for the first part of the uh no please no no, I would rather sit back and listen and learn from both of you chat um I I'm just overwhelmed with Reys's wines, I mean the Vaucluse is still expensive so is the but it's certainly more affordable than shut and if they pop so that's where that's where i'll be shopping for christmas um i really enjoy seeing sarah in its many forms and particularly like looking at the different sapages and the different ways to look at wine i found that it was a really instructive tasting through oh um we have a question when are you drinking for thanksgiving bill and mary oh um i'll i'll i'll say that first and then i'll let mary see us out with her uh thoughts on on thanksgiving drinking um uh my answer is i don't know yet um uh i'm going over to my folks house because we're my wife and i are in a pod with my parents and we can bring our dog over there but um honestly I don't know, I'm just looking forward to having a day off; um, uh, I'll probably bring home some Beaujolais though because I'm on a Beaujolais kick, um, uh, and you know, I don't know, I'll try to bring stuff that my my mom and dad would like, uh.

What does Thanksgiving hold and start for you, Mary? Well, I have a family that doesn't cook; we grew up on McDonald's and canned pasta and terrible things, that's kind of what put me in the gourmet world, um, so I'll be doing the cooking and I have a bottle of Deutz Champagne to start with, so good, and it's like I found it for like $39.99 at a local place, so I had to buy a case; um, yeah, I'll Do the cooking, you just identified why and I have separate finances uh so I couldn't not buy it; it was too good a deal right um and my mom is kind of like a born again, like hates alcohol, so we, my dad and I, kind of sneak our wine; but I don't know, I mean my dad, he loves um but like maybe I'll do like a risotto from the Veneto with the main course it sort of depends, I love leading into dinner, maybe in the spirit of the southern rosé yeah yeah yeah yeah and then um I don't know maybe something like a Barbaresco or you know maybe something a little cheaper because I'm not with a wine crowd per se so the repasto the there's some wines. I'm kind of in this Veneto kick right now, so I think I mean there's so much value there, and I'm actually looking for the ultimate Bartolino to do in the Mary Taylor lines. Don't tell anyone, so I'm just kind of exploring maybe for white like a good Lugana or for in my whites. I just had my due last night and I was like 'Damn, this wine got so beautiful! It's so elegant, it's a kind of a a shocking surprise because it got you know when wines kind of go like inward for a while...like it didn't have a lot there, there, like four months ago.

The dumb face, the famous dumb face, dumb face - yeah, it got dumb for a while, and I was like 'Oh, like what! I loved this.' wine in portugal like i don't know what happened but i opened it last night and it was sublime like i was like oh my god i could slip this into a blind like white burgundy tasting or something like what is the what is the dow the dow it's a encruzado um goveo malvasia fina which gives it like the tiniest little popcorn kind of thing that you know some portuguese whites have on the back um yeah and it's just i love encruzado i think it's a really like it's a great varietal so if the people that cultivate it and i have this like cool woman who has vineyards up three mountain the estrella mountain ranges there's three ranges around Her valley and I mean she works so hard and I love her wines, and you know they're within my range, so I'm excited.

And um, yeah, I mean there's you know one thing I have to just say, and I've been preaching this to people: I don't believe in dessert wine; I don't think that sweet made for a dessert course. The other day at lunch, because I was like feeling fabulous, I had um, a couple glasses of Sauternes with a little chicken liver mousse, and I was like in pure heaven. So if you're gonna drink a Sauternes or like, you know, a Vendange Tardive or something a little bit sweeter, I highly recommend pairing that with something fat and salty and You know, entrance food. You know that's not like dessert wine and please do not drink champagne after dinner, it is a pre-dinner drink as is, as I think, a sweet wine or mid-course but not after dinner.

After dinner drinking is for if you're gonna have your cheese course, you're gonna be drinking your reds, I believe, and after that, you maybe you can have a dessert, but you don't drink with dessert; you have like your tea or something and then you can have your cognac or armagnac or Calvados. I've been told yeah, you can have it tomorrow after dinner, a digestif for sure. I feel like there's a rule, yeah, I feel like there's a book deal. Here, uh, yeah, maybe marriage rules out drinking wine. Yeah, exactly! Dessert and wine are never in the same sentence. Thank you all right. Well, let's toast to that. Cheers to you all. Thank you so much.