Tracing Malbec's Unlikely Journey from French Also Ran to Argentine Superstar

Class transcript:

Welcome, welcome, welcome all. Welcome one and all on this beautiful Sunday. I hope it is as gorgeous in your neck of the woods as it is in mine. I know you can't you know get a full sense of it in the Revelers Hour studio that I'm occupying, but it is absolutely beautiful outside. I hope those of you participating, and I can see that many of you do have internet access outside. I'm hugely jealous of all of you who have managed that and you know big ups to the patio set in the mix. Naturally, this being a gorgeous summer sunny day, we're tasting some you know dense, meaty red wines. You know, you planned it perfectly, but I will say that you know Malbec is one of those topics that I took on, you know, as much for the sake of acknowledging the liquidity of this wine.

You know, Malbec is a hugely successful brand in as much as it is an individualized grape varietal. And I have to say that I have been, you know, pleasantly surprised and beguiled and enchanted by all there is to learn about Malbec and by the wines themselves, which are, you know, big and bold and, you know, kind of gamey and needy and herbal, but, you know, strangely elegant and that are changing, especially in Argentina and the Argentine wine scene. I'm excited to dive into with you all. Just to address the omnipresent question about what's open when, I will say that we have two wines in the mix here for the sake of those of you who provisioned through the restaurant. Thank you. We have, as part of the two-pack cohort, and then one of two, two Argentine reds.

You're going to either have the Valio Aggie, which sees some oak. It's a little different than the one I have here. This is volume number two. Zorzal. Zorzal, which is just kind of fun to say. You know, I feel like Zorro there. Or, you know, men on film, three snaps in a Z formation. But this is a slightly more elegant kind of wine. But nonetheless representative of what's happening today in Argentina in a really dynamic and fun way. At any rate, we're going to go from France, from the European model, the birthplace of Malbec, as it were, and as you will learn more about in this exceeding lesson. And then we're going to do the Argentine wine thereafter. So from old to new world will be our progression.

Typically, when I'm tasting at home, I like to start with a lighter wine and then move into a bigger one. So, you know, you can, you know, gauge that in many different ways, alcohol being the easiest. So, you know, give the back of the bottle a look. You know, my cohort here says we're at 12 and a half percent alcohol, which is, you know, not uncommon for a lot of old world red wines, especially from, you know, slightly cooler regions. And we'll explore that for the sake of core. And the Malbec is at 13.5, which is actually remarkably restrained by Malbec standards. You know, typically these are wines that, you know, are, you know, sitting around 14% alcohol. This is another Malbec I brought to the party that I'll talk about later.

This one is sitting at 14. But, you know, you get up to 15%. And people, you know, the market, they like that. You know, people like the fullness of these wines. And to some extent, a producer like Zarzal, you know, they are, you know, operating, you know, kind of more in the parlance of cohort than they are traditional or kind of what has become to be associated with Argentina and its Malbecs in the market. So, you know, it's a little bit different. It's a little bit different than the modern era. Without further ado, welcome, one and all. We're going to kick off the lesson here. I'm thrilled to host you all every week. I find myself taking comfort in this routine. And I hope you all feel the same way.

We're going to come to the shameless self-promotion portion of proceedings here. And on this front, there's not much to recommend. First and foremost, this Thursday, if you live in the DMV, we're going to be hosting a fundraiser for Campaign Zero. Campaign Zero is a movement started by some activists associated with Black Lives Matter. It's really about kind of policing reform. And the zero there refers to zero deaths due to, you know, policing practices. And it's a movement that's going to be in the United States. And they recommend all sorts of reforms. Excitingly enough, Cory Booker is going to introduce legislation this Monday that is very consistent with the kinds of recommendations they make. I feel like, you know, we want to put our money where our mouth is.

So all sales from Tail Up Goat on Thursday will go to Campaign Zero. And at Reveler's Hour throughout the week, we'll be selling sandwiches, all sales from the sandwiches, will go to Campaign Zero as well. We are really at the heart of this political moment in DC. And we're proud that many of our servers, many of our, you know, cooks have participated in protests this week. And we want to take action and support them. Incidentally, we're particularly excited to see on the nightly news a Tail Up Goat hat in the crowd at a protest, which is a wonderful segue because we have merch. I'm very excited to report that the one and only Andrew Rutledge, it is his birthday, happy birthday, Andrew, has designed some merch.

He has designed some merch, not only for Reveler's Hour, but specifically for Tail Up Goat Wine School. This is the inaugural shirt. And big ups to Janice for compiling some quotes for the sake of, you know, kind of building out merchandise. But this is the Flutes are Bogus. I think, I think there's another, there's another image on the backside, but you can get a sense of what the backside of this looks like. I'm doing the worst job ever in showing off the merch, but this is the Champagne Flutes are Bogus T-shirt from your friends at Tail Up Goat. So check that out, Sarah. We'll include the link in our chat for you all to follow as you see fit. Equally excited to have another content stream for those of you that can't wait a full week.

Join us Thursday for Flying Blind. Those wines are available through the Reveler's Hour site. That is our regular blind tasting series hosted by none other than Zoe Nystrom. They run me through the ringer for the sake of tasting wine blind. I'm consistently batting 500. So, join up, see if you can do better than what have I, I've established as the 500 Mendoza line for the sake of blind tasting. Without further ado, we're going to move on to the matter of hand, which is Melbeck. And thrilled to talk all about it. As always, have a bit of verse. And we're going to kick it Argentine. I was a Latin American history major, and I love a lot of Latin American verse. And naturally Borges in the mix, Jorge Luis Borges, his writing is kind of outside of time.

So, you know, it's hard to say that it's not topical because it's kind of always topical with Borges, which I love about him. And this is his bit of verse just to kick things off. And just give me one moment here and I'll have that for you all. But this is a poem I translated from the original Spanish called Compass. All things are words belonging to that language. In which someone or something, night and day, writes down the infant babble that is, per se, the history of the world. And in that hodgepodge, both Rome and Carthage, he and you and I, my life that I don't grasp, this painful load of being riddled, randomness or code, and all of Babel's gibberish stream by. Behind the name is that which has no name.

Today I felt its shadow gravitate in this blue needle, in its trembling sweep, casting its influence toward the farthest straight, with something of a clock glimpsed in a dream, and something of a bird that stirs in its sleep. Love Borges. Love Borges. At any rate, Malbec is a truly fascinating grape and its reach extends, you know, around the world. We are talking about Malbec and we will talk about its French origins, but we are devoting a class to it because, it has come to prominence in Argentina, and because it has become, you know, this hugely successful global brand. So it's this grape that has had this wonderful, you know, kind of rebirth and renaissance in, you know, the former colonies in a way that I find hugely fascinating.

And in as much as it is traditionally a French varietal, it is very much Argentina's own at this point. And I think, you know, to the extent that people associate Malbec with anywhere, they associate it with Argentina, which is really cool. I have a bit of over rock pros here. I love a little bit of over rock pros. This is from Pablo Lacoste. The Argentine government has spent a good deal of money promoting its wine industry, promoting Malbec by extension. And they, I think, gave Pablo a little bit of money to extol the virtues in the history, the unique history of Malbec. And he, you know, kind of went, went to 11. So this is, you know, prose about Malbec's history that goes to 11 in kind of a fun way.

So speaking about Malbec and its history, he says, it is a journey full of vitality and dramatic tension marked by human passions, the power struggles and utopias, the victories and defeats, kings and nobles, Templars and musketeers, soldiers and Marines, British, French, Spanish, and other nations' forces all played their part on an uncertain path with stretches of darkness and silence, alternating with those of brightness and sounds of music and joy to truly understand the success of this break. All of this must be taken into consideration since Malbec is embedded in world history. You thought you were just drinking cheap supermarket wine. It turns out you're drinking world history, Heidi. At any rate, I love that. And I'm fond of saying, especially in the context of, of teaching, you know, our servers here that to the extent that you dig deeply enough and you study wine history, passionately enough, you are really studying the history of, of, of Western civilization.

It is a very Western perspective and it's important to note the limitations of that perspective. But if you dig deeply enough, you can understand, you know, really profound truths, not just about what's in the glass, but about the way, you know, we as a species, you know, came to, you know, develop our civilizations over time. And I think that's worth, you know, celebrating and exploring in a really fun way. Thank you. So Malbec, such as it is, has its origins in over rock crows, but the grape itself was born in a region called Cahors. And that is where our first wine is from. Cahors sits kind of at this crossroads. So you are on a tributary of the Garonne. So the Garonne is one of two rivers, the Garonne and the Dordogne that form the Gironde estuary.

It's maddening. All these river names, that form an estuary of a different name, but you're basically dealing with upstream from Bordeaux. But historically Cahors is actually more significant in the Roman era and into the early Middle Ages than Bordeaux itself was. And the grape we now know as Malbec was, and is the cross of two ancient and highly esoteric varietals. One being Prunellard, the root there comes from prune, and it's thought that its flavors are reminiscent of prunes, which are not unlike the fruit flavors a lot of people ascribe to Malbec itself. And that grape has its origins in southwestern France. And another grape, which is even more fascinating in my mind, called Magdalen Noir de Churance.

Magdalen Noir de Churance has its origins much further north in Normandy, which is a cider country in the modern era, but back in the early Middle Ages, in the 10th, 11th, 12th century, was sufficiently warm to, you know, grow grapes to make wine. Magdalen Noir de Churance, for those of you that were paying attention many moons ago during our Bordeaux lesson, is one of the parents of, wait for it, drum roll, Merlot. And so, it just so happens that Malbec and Merlot are half-siblings, which I find fascinating. At any rate, the wines of this region core were famous in the latter days of the Roman era, but they're hugely famous stretching to the 11th and 12th century. They were celebrated by Henry Plantagenet.

He married Eleanor of Aquitaine and became Henry III, but he praised what he called the dark wines of Cahors. And those of you looking in your glass of Cahors at the moment can get a sense of that darkness. They call it the black wine of Cahors. Now, there's quite a bit of historical and modern scholarly speculation about whether the grape he was talking about was Malbec or not. The first published mention of Malbec is actually under a different name, which is Coe. C-O with a little chapeau and T, Coe. The first published mention dates to the late 18th century. The synonym Malbec is really fascinating. The grape itself was so widespread throughout France and spread so widely from its home base that it has anywhere from 400 to well over 1,000 different synonyms, which I find hugely fascinating.

Malbec, in particular, has a lot of different etymologies depending on who you pay attention to. My favorite is that there is a Hungarian Johnny Appleseed figure who promoted Malbec throughout France and Malbec was named after him, his name Malbec. There's like zero, that's definitely apocryphal. There's not much scholarly evidence to indicate that Malbec was ever a Hungarian surname or that this guy ever existed to give his name to the grape, but it's a fun story nonetheless. There's another theory that Malbec as a grape was always used as a blending agent, and the French Malbec means kind of bad beak, which is thought to derive from kind of bad mouth or bitter or stringent taste, and that's one other kind of popularized notion for the sake of the Georgians.

The one that is probably correct, Jancis Robinson, who is one of the foremost scholars on this type of thing, says that it takes its name from a merchant in Bordeaux who popularized the grape at the tail end of the 18th century. But I rather like the Hungarian Appleseed, Johnny Appleseed version, so let's just go with that one. Sometimes the fun fiction is better than the whole truth, especially when it comes to drinking stories. At any rate, Malbec came from Cahors, landed in Bordeaux. It is one of six allowable varietals in Bordeaux, and actually up until the mid-20th century, it was a very important varietal in a lot of Bordeaux wines. People talk about traditional Bordeaux blends, and they're usually referring to the Troika, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, and Merlot, but it should be said that Malbec, Petit Bordeaux, and Carmeniere can go into the mix as well.

Malbec had quite a foothold in Bordeaux proper until 1956, which was the coldest winter on record since the early 18th century. There was a series of disastrous frosts. Malbec in particular is not very cold-hardy, especially early in its growth cycle, and a lot of the vines died and were replaced by other varietals. Cahors suffered the same fate, but for whatever reason, the grape persisted and remained the major varietal there. Such that into the modern era, by law, the wines of Cahors must contain 70% Malbec. Which brings us to the matter at hand, our Cahors. So let's taste some fucking wine. We've got this in the glass. Let's taste through it. Color is significant for the sake of Malbec. Should be said, Malbec readily identifiable by its magenta rim.

Magenta rim, for those of you playing along at home. So it is one of those wines that, you know, if you are in a blind tasting context, color can be hugely indicative. And you really get that on this Cahors. You know, it has this like really bright vivid color that not a lot of red wines give off. What I love about this wine is the aromatic dimension of it. This is not a wine that sees any oak. The initial fermentation happens in ancient cement vats. And we'll talk about that a little later in the context of Argentine contemporary winemaking. But it sees a little bit of neutral oak to soften things up thereafter. But it's hugely aromatic. It's not aromatic in a loads of baking spice, new oak vanilla kind of way.

It's hugely aromatic in this like Bailey, you know, gamey state Jew kind of way that I find, you know, hugely enthralling. Also something like for me, kind of dusty and, you know, slaty and graphite about this wine in a way that, you know, I find really, really fascinating. And I love to live in that, you know, kind of more savory world when it comes to wine. You know, this is a wine that has fruit, but what fruit it has leans more toward the kind of like tart, you know, underripe berry side of the ledger. The much more kind of interesting descriptors I find are, you know, those secondary and tertiary dimensions of flavor for the sake of this one. Ah, wunderbar. I just wish I had steak to go with it.

Just to, you know, talk about what makes this particular wine so special. So this comes from close to the heart, many generations in the same family. The estate dates back several centuries. I'm going to pull up the map of Cahors once more, because I can show you where exactly this particular state lies. So this blue dot here indicates the estate, and that is significant because the defining feature of Cahors is the river lot, which is the tributary of the Garonne. And traditionally, the black wines of Gore were from vineyards closer to the river itself. Anytime you get closer to a river, the soils are going to be heavier and they're going to be more fertile, which sounds like a good thing, but for the sake of wine tends to produce dense, fuller-bodied wines, but typically less characterful ones.

This estate is about as far as you can go, as you can get from the river and still be in the domain. And that's significant because it's on what the locals call the C-A-U-S-S-E, which is an uplifted limestone seabed. And that limestone, which is a very basic soil, tends to give more acidic, brighter, you know, elegant, structured kinds of wines. And you're at elevation well above the river lot here. And because that, you know, you're very late ripening, very long growing season. You know, harvest might be at the end of October here, which given how far south you are in France is pretty, pretty remarkable. Even, you know, given the fact that Malbec is a very late ripening grape. Cahors, it should be said cartoonishly beautiful.

You know, we're going to deal with two winemaking regions that are cartoonishly beautiful for the sake of today's lesson. And it has this like land that time forgot quality to it. It was, you know, a major trading route. The river itself was, this is Gilles, a winemaker in his cellar, which dates back many centuries. And, you know, it was along major trade routes. It was along a pilgrimage route to the cathedral of St. James. So it was actually along the Camino de Santiago, which we talked about a couple of lessons ago. And, you know, this is one of those wines that truly is timeless. It is held back for two years. It is unfined and unfiltered. He holds it back so that he can not filter.

So classically, if you're just leaving a wine and settling it on the fine leaves, it takes about two years for the wine to settle enough that you can then rack it off without filtering and produce something that's shelf stable. So he truly does it the old way. And these are 60 year old vines. He makes a separate crew that we actually have for sale. That is from 80 plus year old vines. These are 40 year old vines. They look like they're from the basement of time, which I love. You can see the limestone in the soil. This is an old outbuilding. You'll find these scattered across wineries throughout the old world. You know, it's just a place for people to, you know, rest their head and escape the sun.

You know, this is one of those wines that, you know, really hasn't changed for the sake of its production in, you know, a fabulous, you know, almost retrograde, you know, reactionary kind of way. But I love that about it. And, and it tastes, you know, traditional and wholesome. And I think there's something like lovably old fashioned about it. And I think it also confounds this picture that we have of Malbec as this like jammy fruit punch, jungle juicy kind of thing from, you know, the lowest supermarket aisle. You know, this is, this is not that, but it's still, you know, wildly inexpensive in, in a way that, you know, is, is, is always worth celebrating. Sarah Thompson, I'm going to unmute you before I call, I call you to comment or, or holler questions at me.

What do you have from the commentary for the sake of this particular offer? Well, first of all, your one-offs are, you know, you're about to make a lot of t-shirts from this conversation. That's how we, that's how we make all our money, Sarah. The t-shirt sales. Yes, exactly. You and your basement of time over there. We are though privately getting schooled on our pronunciation of, of Kaor. Oh, thank you. It is silent. Kaor, and it's, it's two syllables, not, it should be two syllables, not one. Kaor, thank, thank you. You said that I am much more qualified to talk Malbec as it exists in Argentina, uh, linguistically than I am Kaor as it exists in France. You know, I, I took some Spanish, but you know, you could probably guess how much French I took in school.

Same. Yeah. Um, people want to know whether all Kaor wine is Malbec or what's the deal? What's the percentage? Yeah, by law, um, it is, uh, 70% Malbec. Um, you will find Tempranillo in the mix. So this one has 5% Tempranillo in the mix. Uh, Tempranillo is a Basque grape, um, uh, fascinatingly enough. So, um, you're approaching, um, Basque country and, and, and France has Basque country, Uruguay on the, on the other side of the Pyrenees, um, from, uh, Spanish Basque country. Um, and then there is, shit, what else can you throw in the mix? You can throw, I think you can throw, oh, Merlot. You can throw another red grape in the mix that I'm forgetting. Um, but by law, Co, they actually don't call it Malbec in, in, in Cahors.

They either call it, um, uh, Co, uh, Co, or Auxerrois, uh, which is hugely, um, maddening because Auxerrois, uh, refers to another, uh, grape in France, which is a white grape predominant in Alsace, which is genetically identical to Pinot Blanc. So there's just like a lot of madness there, uh, linguistically. But, um, it is by law, um, predominantly, um, they grow other things there. So actually, um, Clos de Guerre makes this really cool, um, Petnat from Moissac, um, but they can't label it Cahors because it doesn't conform to what, you know, they think of as, as the wines from this particular corner of France. And I know we're not talking Bordeaux today, but Christian does want to know what Malbec lends to Bordeaux Reds. Oh, great.

Yeah, it's a great question, um, or excellent question in the far lengths of our, our, our t-shirts, uh, uh, body structure. Um, it's one of those, put the lead in the pencil, um, of the wines thing. Um, and very often, um, you know, before people got really worked up about, you know, single estate wines, the merchants of Bordeaux would, um, import Malbec from Cahors, which is further south, um, to add to their wines to lend color, um, and to lend structure. Um, so that's, that's what you get out of it. And, um, you know, just, you know, getting ahead of the global warming questions, you know, it could be that, you know, as Bordeaux warms up, um, Malbec, a later ripening grape than the, uh, uh, traditional Bordeaux Troika, um, will, you know, reemerge.

Um, and, and, and as frost hopefully becomes less than an issue, late frost becomes less an issue in Bordeaux, you know, uh, Malbec, uh, Petit Verdot in particular could reemerge in the region, um, as, as grapes that are driving blends as opposed to grapes that just occasionally put lead in the pencil of, of these ones. Good. Um, so, uh, shifting gears, um, and, and moving to, you know, this, this strange, um, you know, uh, patterns of migration. And, and I, I will say, um, you know, migration studies, um, uh, you know, the history of trade, hugely fascinating, underexplored, um, and, you know, very significant for the sake of food, um, and wine. You know, we are in the Americas, you know, all mashups, you know, um, you know, none of us, you know, except for, you know, the, the small percentage that, you know, actually are from here and came across the land bridge, you know, tens of thousands of years ago, um,

you know, are, are, you know, from here for many generations in, in, in a broader sense. Um, Argentina is, you know, very much like America, a, uh, land of immigrants. Um, the, you know, the, the composition is a little different. In Argentina, it was, you know, fewer gringos. So there were, there was some English, uh, that came to Argentina, but it was, it was largely, uh, Spanish first. And then, um, significantly in the 19th and 20, early 20th century, um, uh, Italian. Um, and, and Argent, Argentina, especially in Buenos Aires, um, you know, the Porteño dialect comes as much from Italian as it does from, from Spanish. And, uh, there's a really fascinating; I took a lot of Argentine history, but they're really fascinating, like, parallel, um, trajectories for Argentina and the United States throughout their history until you hit, you know, um, World War I, which is just like, famous maxim, uh, from an, uh, Argentine president, 'to govern is to populate.' So, to govern is to populate.

So, you get a sense of, you know, the integral role that immigration has played, um, in the country. Um, at any rate, you know, Malbec comes to Argentina, um, the same way a lot of grapes come to, uh, uh, the New World. And, and, and this is through their effort to, um, you know, kind of, uh, celebrate wine in their own way and differentiate themselves from their former colonial masters. So, um, the kind of, uh, father, the forefather of the Malbec movement in Argentina is this hugely, uh, fascinating figure named, uh, Domingo Faustino Sarmiento. Sarmiento is, um, this larger than life figure, hugely significant for the sake of Argentine history, um, American history, uh, global history, if you dig deeply enough.

A very profound, beautiful writer in Castilian Spanish, um, but he, uh, spent a lot of his life in exile in Chile, um, because, uh, in the earlier part of his life, he eventually became, uh, president of Argentina. Uh, but in,, 1840s, 1850s,  Argentina was ruled over by a dictator named Rosas and Sarmiento fled to Santiago, Chile, across the Andes, um, from Argentina, um, and, uh, because, uh, he, um, reviled, uh, Rosas. And he had these, you know, very Republican, Democratic, uh, progressive ideas about what he wanted for his state that he ultimately was able to, popularize and, and has celebrated to, to, celebrated for to this day. Um, but at that time, he was in,  Santiago.

And, uh, the Chileans themselves were trying to differentiate themselves from their former, um, Spanish colonial masters. And, um, they, uh, wanted to promote their own wine industry. And they had all these Spanish grapes they're working with, um, uh, cheaply a grape called Pais, um, which is still used to make wine, um, in Chile to this day, a wine called Pipino. That's really cool. And hopefully it will be the subject of another wine class. But at any rate, they were like, you know, we want to move away from that whole Spanish thing. Um, and, you know, we want to innovate. And, you know, for them, the model, the archetype was France. And so, uh, they brought in, uh, French agronomists and French grapes cheaply, um, this, you know, kind of, um, really, uh, important figure name, um, uh, Michel, uh, Pouget, was a French agronomist, uh, that, you know, during, uh, the 18th century renaissance in France had become popular for the sake of promoting best practices for our agriculture, um, and for viticulture. And, uh, the Chileans first in Santiago, you know, uh, established one and us, um, and then, you know, you have this, this figure Sarmiento that says, I want the same for Argentina. So he crosses the Andes. Um, uh, Santiago, Chile is, is like 50 miles from Mendoza, which is still to this day, the center of Argentine wine making, but you have to cross a 20,000 foot and, and Indian Ridge to get there. Um, and, um, you know, uh, so, you know, it's, it's, it's a longer trip than you might imagine, given, given how close they are as the crow flies.

Uh, but, uh, eventually he makes his way to Mendoza and founds his own Quinta Normal. Um, and, uh, the local legislature establishes, uh, this school with me, the same Michel Pouget, um, as, um, the kind of guiding intellectual light on April 17th, 1853. Uh, we celebrate April 17th as World Malbec Day, uh, raises the roof for World Malbec Day. Certainly, we, we missed World Malbec Day, but at any rate, um, Mendoza is, is hugely fascinating and Malbec did really well there, um, for a, a variety of reasons. So, um, you know, first and foremost, I think it's important to acknowledge that we are dealing with a cartoonishly beautiful, um, place. We are in the foothills of the Andes. Um, this is, uh, these are the vineyards of Zorzal. That's the wine I'm drinking.

Um, it is in the same district, in the same sub-region, in the same kind of sub-sub-region, as, um, the, um, the first wine that we sold, um, uh, as the, the Valle Agui. So this is the, could be the view, uh, from those vineyards as well. Those are the snow-capped Andes. You know, it's just stupidly beautiful. Um, you know, it's just a place you want to, you know, give up your quarantine life in BC and drive down to, if that was an option. Um, you know, not to, you know, feed anyone with, with ideas. But, um, at any rate, um, you are on the east side of, uh, the Andes. And that's significant because weather patterns move west to east, and that puts you in a rain shadow.

Um, so if you see this map, you know, east side of the Andes, um, you're essentially in a desert. Um, they get about eight inches of rain a year, which, uh, makes it, honest to God, desert. Uh, the threshold for desert is 10 inches of rain a year. Um, but vines are, are famously, um, hardy. And, you know, they don't need a lot of water, but they need more than, than that. Um, uh, they do that through irrigation. They do that through snowmelt. So irrigation is essential, uh, to the winemaking here. Although, occasionally they can dry farm, but irrigation and water rights, um, you know, like in Australia, are hugely significant to the winemaking industry. Um, that makes it a very auspicious region, though. Um, because it's so dry, um, they can grow and ripen almost anything.

And there's, like, zero disease pressure. Um, uh, so, they can work with a grape like Malbec that is otherwise a little finicky, um, if you don't treat it right, especially early in the growing season. And then it can make these, like, really spectacular wines out of it. And, uh, they did that through, uh, the modern era in quantity. Um, but they didn't really make wine in quality until the 80s. And, at that point, you had, you know, these, um, you know, transformational figures in the Argentine industry, like, uh, Zuccardi and Catino Zapata. And, uh, they really looked at what was happening elsewhere in the New World, in places like California, um, in particular. And they said, you know, look, you know, these, uh, New World wine regions, um, you know, they, you know, have, have grown grapes for a long time, but they are starting to make wines that can rival, um, you know, the great wines in Europe.

And they said, you know, we should be doing the same thing. And, um, honestly the, the rest is history. And, and Malbec really took off. Um, and I, I found it fascinating that they didn't really, they created their own brand. They didn't really have to adopt someone else's. And that's, that to me says something about the innateness of, um, how well Malbec was suited to this terroir. So, you know, what does Malbec do in Argentina that maybe it doesn't do, um, elsewhere quite as well? Well, you have a thicker skin grape, but you have a very sunny region. And, and because you're getting so much sun, you see this like great physiological development of the fruit. And, you know, these tannins that would be harsh and austere in other places tend to break down in a way that gives these wines this velvety softness.

And, you know, Malbec has this really large ripening window. Um, there are some grapes like, um, like Merlot, um, or, or, you know, Pinot at times. Uh, if you've ever seen like the Eddie Izzard pear, you know, skit about ripening, you know, they just like have this like narrow window. You know, they're going to fall apart. You know, they're going to just like go overripe and give up the ghost. It'll be all over. Um, Malbec doesn't work that way. Malbec, like you could, you know, give it all the hang time in the world. It'd be fine. You know, and it's just about what, what Malbec you want to make. Now, um, you know, it works that way in a drier environment.

Um, but, um, you know, it doesn't, you know, work that way in an environment, you know, that's not quite as auspicious or dry, uh, as, as Argentina. Um, you know, so that's, you know, the, the core truth of what is special about this grape in this region. And then, um, well, let's taste some fucking wine first. Uh, uh, I've talked enough. Um, but it's, it's really, really fascinating place. So, um, uh, let's, Thompson, let’s, let’s feed it over to the commentariat because I did a terrible job of saving wine for the sake of this lesson, uh, on the Valeo. 

in the Spanish parlance, um, his name, so like if he was a gringo, his name would be José Lavalio. Um, they append the mother's surname to the father's surname. So his mother's surname is Balbo. Um, his mother, total badass, um, was one of the first women credentialed as a, um, you know, winemaker, um, in Mendoza. Still, like, very involved in her own estates winemaking to this day, and also has become a Congresswoman, um, in Mendoza. Um, and, uh, at any rate, uh, this is his, the Valeo is his side project. Um, it sees 40% new oak. Um, Malbec is a grape that can wear new oak well. I think in the 80s, you had this influx of consultants or the 90s, more, more in the 90s, you had this influx of consultants to Argentina who saw that, A, this place is preposterously beautiful, like who, who wouldn't want to hang and eat steak and chimichurri and drink Malbec there.

Um, but also B, that, um, you know, they were very much working in this, like Michel Roland, Paul Hobbes, you know, you know, kind of, uh, universe of, you know, the riper, the better, you know? So they were like, after all the Robert Parker points, and they were throwing new oak at a grape that may or may not have needed it already. Uh, people have pulled back from that. And, you know, one of my favorite takeaways from this particular lesson has been that, you know, these wines are becoming a lot fresher. Um, you know, I don't want to make blankets. I don't want to make statements against new oak though. You know, I think oak can, you know, if you wear it well, be like a really fun accent. And, and I think, you know, the value gives you a sense of that. You know, the value is closer to Malbec as most people imagine it, but, um, it is nonetheless elegant in a really awesome way. So I, I don't know, uh, Thompson, if you want to throw out, you know, some for folks that do have that wine, you know, how would you guys differentiate it from, uh, you know, the, the wine that you drink at home? What are you drinking at home? I have the Valeo. Well, come on. How would you differentiate it? I haven't gotten to it yet. Well, how would your parents come on, let's see your folks. Let's have your folks chime in. I'm being handed glasses. Give me a second. Oh, nice. Um, so it should be said, um, this particular wine is from, uh, a sub zone of, uh, Mendoza. So Mendoza is the province of Argentina. Um, it is a beautiful, beautiful city. Uh, one of the most beautiful wine cities in the world. Um, and it has sub regions, um, apart from, um, you know, the, the kind of larger province. So, um, traditionally, or in and around Santa Rosa, those are some of like the oldest wineries.

Um, they make wine at volume. Um, uh, in this region, uh, Lujan de Cuyo is a very old vines that start to creep up the mountains. And then, you have the Valle de Uco about an hour or so south of Mendoza, which is where a lot of the most prestigious wines come from to this day. And, uh, that is where both of, um, the offerings that we're drinking, uh, come from both the Vallejo and the wine I'm drinking for the sake of the, uh, Zarzal. Uh, both of those hail from a, uh, unique sub-region of, um, the Uco Valley, um, which itself is at a higher elevation than the rest of Mendoza. Um, they both come from this individual commune called, uh, Galtalari. Um, and that's in the north.

Um, and itself, you have all of these alluvial outwashings. So, alluvial is a, a geological term that just refers to the outwash of a river or a stream. Um, and, uh, alluvial soils, uh, you know, tend to be, um, as they, as you go kind of closer to the mountains, stonier, rockier, less fertile. As you get further down, they get heavier and more fertile. You know, most of these estates are going to be higher up, um, on the hill, uh, so to speak. And that's going to give you these, like, brighter, more precise, uh, kinds of wines. And the Argentines are doing; they're really like terroir obsessed now when it comes to their Malbec. And they're wanting to understand the underpinnings of these individual vineyard sites in a more profound way.

And, and because of that, they're wanting to manipulate the wine less. They're wanting to throw less oak at it because, you know, if you throw oak at a wine and you're trying to understand vineyard influence, then, you know, you're obscuring the fact, uh, very often. And, and I find that really fascinating. So for the sake of the Zorzal, it's, uh, entirely concrete. Um, for the sake of the Valio, it's, it's comparatively judicious use of new oak, uh, by Argentine standards. Uh, Sarah Thompson, um, give us your reflections on the Valio, uh, vis-a-vis the, um, the, the cohort, uh, that we were tasting. Yeah, it's a lot more, um, jammy and has a lot more stewed fruit to it. Um, I think it's true.

A couple of people are saying this on the chat as well, that the, the fruit presents itself as a bit sweeter. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, it should be said, the new oak influence, there are a lot of chemical constituents in new oak that gave you that, gave you a perception of fullness and sweetness. Um, you know, they're, they're not sugars as such. So, it says nothing about, you know, the, um, you know, uh, kind of empirical scientific amount of sugar in the wine. It says more about, you know, the way we proceeded. Um, I think, you know, with respect to the Zorzal, you know, I'm, I'm kind of excited about this wine because, um, it doesn't see any new oak. Um, you get a sweetness of fruit.

So the, the quality of fruit in this wine is very different than the quality of fruit in the Gore. Um, and it leans much more into that riper berry fruit. There's a lot more of like, kind of like a ripe raspberry, um, you know, signature, uh, to this wine. But it's still really bright and it's still not, you know, one note. Um, you know, I still get some of those like gamey, meaty, um, you know, um, kind of flavor profiles that I, I love about, I love about Malbec. And, you know, that comes from a couple things. One of them also comes from, um, you know, their decision about what kind of wine they want to make and when they want to harvest their fruit.

And it should be said that, um, in this region, they are altitude-obsessed. So in Europe, um, the highest elevation vineyards max out at, you know, 1,500 feet. There are a few vineyards above that. You know, I was, I was looking at stats. Jancis Robinson, um, you know, said that, you know, 1,640 was the upper limit. You know, there's never going to be like a true upper limit. You know, people are always pushing that. But, you know, uh, you know, you get to a certain elevation where, you know, grapes just don't reliably ripen in, in Europe. In, in Malbec or in, in Argentina, you know, these vineyards are, they start at like 2,000 feet and up. Um, you know, both of these are probably like 25,000 to 30,000 feet of elevation.

There are people making wine at like 50,000 feet and up. There are people pushing like even more extremes and it's become very fashionable within the last five years. There's in Argentina to like post the, like put the elevation on the label. Um, and you know, it feels facile, but it does make for really interesting wine. It should be said that at higher altitudes, a few things happen. First of all, um, the higher you get, um, obviously, uh, the cooler it gets. So, um, they say that like with every, I think with every hundred feet, uh, meter elevation gain, or is it a thousand, I think a thousand, thousand meters, equals like one degree lower of, uh, temperature centigrade. Maybe it's a hundred. I don't fucking know, but that makes a big difference.

That's a, that's an exponential growth curve I'm talking about. But anyway, the higher you get, the cooler it gets. You get the idea. Uh, the relationship is the same. Um, uh, at any rate, um, and, and, you know, that typically though has more to do with, um, temperature swing than it does, um, with, um, you know, a, a composite temperature. So it still gets really hot. It gets about as hot as it would on the valley floor in a lot of these places, but it gets way cooler at night. And, uh, the, you know, the, the wonky nerdy wine term for that is diurnal shift. So if you're, you know, visiting winemaker friends in Argentina or elsewhere, and you want to, you know, impress them, you can ask about the diurnal shift or, you know, say you're so impressed about that, but it's just a way of saying that these, the, you know, difference between the daytime high and the nighttime low is really big.

And, uh, in, in Argentina, they have like some of the biggest, uh, differences between that, you know, daytime high and nighttime low. And what that gives you is full ripeness in your fruit, um, and development of those like riper fruity flavors, but you're able to maintain acidity because the temperatures drop and it, it, it, um, delays ripening. So it's not the case that, you know, across the finish line, for the sake of reckoning, they're still, you know, kind of eking and you always want that extra step, you know, good wine is all about extending that ripening window. You know, you want that kind of long, slow maturation process. You're always about that low and slow, uh, for the sake of, um, good wine and, you know, complex, uh, fruit.

Um, and, you know, I, I find that, I find that really fascinating, really special, um, about this region is the way that they've been able to unlock altitude, um, as this variable, um, in their grape growing, uh, in wine making. And it's something that they continue to dive, you know, really deep, uh, into. And then, you know, this added piece that, you know, they have become more terroir obsessed, um, in this region. And so, you know, they're altitude obsessed, but increasingly, um, they're looking at, you know, these various vineyards. And, and typically the composition is the same. Typically, it's all alluvial outwash. So, you know, typically it's all these fan, what's called alluvial fan. Um, it's flood zone coming down from the Andes.

Um, but, you know, nonetheless, um, you know, within that fan, you get a variety of different soil compositions. And, you know, for the sake of Mendoza, there's quite a bit of, um, of limestone. It's a little different than the ancient sea, seabed flora. A lot of it is kind of produced in situ through a series of chemical reactions around these larger stones in a way that makes for different kinds of wines. Um, but, um, it gives you that, you know, um, influence of more basic soils in a really profound way. And, and for the sake of Malbec, that retains your acid. Um, that gives you kind of brightness in a wine that could be otherwise lacking it in a really fascinating way.

Uh, Thompson, did you have any more questions, uh, for me, uh, pursuant to, uh, either the Zorzal or, um, the volume, um, having compared those to the core? Um, not specifically to the wines that we're drinking, but a couple of questions in general. Um, we're at about a hundred meters. I was trying to do a little research, so. A hundred, a hundred meters per, per degree, 0.6 degrees Celsius. Oh, okay, okay. For a hundred meter rise, yeah. Okay. But that doesn't take into account wind chill and stuff like that. We'll do more research. We'll send. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there is a question about, uh, why there's so much hate on Malbec. It's like the new Merlot. Um, I think that's just because I think like it's a, it's a bit of a hater's going to hate thing.

They've been like really successful, uh, building their brand. Um, and you know, they have like stolen market share away from, from California, Merlot. Um, you know, I think part of it too, is about the fact that like on a large scale, a lot of the wines are heavy, heavy, heavily manipulated. Um, they're acidified universally across the board. Um, so it should be said that, you know, none, none of the wines that I've, I've recommended are, are acidified as, as I know, but, um, the process of acidifying wine in warmer climates is much more common than people commonly realize. Um, and that sounds really, um, insidious, um, but it's as simple as adding, um, typically tartaric acid, um, in powdered form, uh, to wine.

Um, and people do that as a corrective because otherwise the wine would just be kind of whack and flat. Um, um, and it's a lot easier to make overripe wine and add a little tartaric acid than it is to make a wine that stands on its own two feet and has enough acid to, you know, be balanced as such prior to release. Uh, part of the reason you see a lot of, uh, growers in Mendoza moving to the Eagle Valley in these higher altitude sites is because they can make wines that are, are less manipulated. Um, uh, so, um, you know, I think people react against the manipulation. I think people react against, um, you know, the fact that it has been kind of an over-oaked wine.

Um, I think people react against the fact that it just, like, descends into this Miomi Pinot, like, one look, you know, big fucking red place that lacks any, you know, um, expression of place. Um, and, and, and so, you know, I, I think those criticisms are justified to that end, but, you know, by the same token, I feel like Argentina suffers, just like, just like Australia suffers from the success of these huge commercial brands, Argentina does as well. I don't think people realize how dynamic the wine scene is there on the ground because a lot of the more interesting, smaller production, artisanal wines don't make it here. You know, a lot of the wines that don't conform to that image of the $10, you know, low shelf, you know, kind of entry-level Argentine Malbec, they don't make it here because it's not what people are interested in, you know?

And, and so, you know, you have these artisanal producers that are trying to do something different than what people are used to out of Argentine Malbec or, God forbid, other grapes. And they're there, you know, there are a lot of, like, really interesting Argentine blends, Petite Gargota is really well, Cabronc actually does it really well in Mendoza. Tarantes, which is a different Tarantes than the one in Spain, can be an interesting, dynamic kind of wine. You know, Bonarda is like an Italian peasant's wine, but if you, you know, treat it right, it can be, you know, wonderfully dynamic and fascinating. So, and then, and that's not to speak at all about Old Vine Pinot in Patagonia. So, it's a much more, you know, dynamic wine scene that people give it credit for.

But, you know, they've been a victim of their own success. They've been so successful at selling us, you know, you know, $10 Malbec by the, you know, shipping container pool, that I, you know, sometimes those wines crowd out the, the more expressive, you know, ones that, you know, wine drinkers who care about a sense of place are, are, would be interested. In another vein about Argentinian Malbecs, you often see, that they're a hundred percent Malbec and not a lot of blending varietals. Yeah. But conversely with the core, you have mostly Malbec, but with a blending partner of, you know, Tinot and Merlot. Why are they not blending more in Argentina? That's a great question. And that's something that I think a lot of people lament.

I, part of why they're not blending more is because people will pay more for a hundred percent Malbec. The grape itself has become so successful that, you know, consumers like the idea of varietal-driven wine. It doesn't matter that you could make a better wine, but you added a little bit of Petit Bordeaux and Cabernet Franc. You know, no one cares about that. You know, the idea of blends for some reason, you know, is gauche, is debased. I think, you know, people are so varietally driven now in their wine set. You know, they don't like the idea that, you know, something is, you know, somehow impure, because there are multiple grapes in the mix. And, you know, I think that's a, that's a consumer trend more. It's a winemaker trend.

I think, you know, most winemakers would say that like, you know, if left to their own devices, they'd love to add a little Bernarda to their Malbec, you know, or it's a lot harder to find a hundred percent Malbec that can, you know, fire on all cylinders and, you know, hit all, like check all the boxes you want it to. Then it is to, you know, maybe, you know, throw a little something in the mix just to soften things. So, I think that's more of a consumer thing than it is a winemaker driven thing. Speaking of consumer side things, where can people get some of these smaller production? Gran Cata. So Gran Cata, Gran Cata, Gran Cata. Those guys are awesome. You know, we haven't recommended them for the sake of, you know, provisioning for school.

You know, at the moment that's out of naked, you know, economic interest for our own survival, but that place is awesome. Gran Cata is one of my favorite liquor stores in the city. It is really awesome. It has this like narrative aspect, ways divided. So Gran Cata is a liquor store founded by Argentinian, Uruguayan, Chilean, Uruguayan - anyway, a couple of South American blokes. On one side of the store, they have wine from the South America, Uruguay, Argentina, and Chile, mainly. And then on the other side of the store, they have wine from the former mother countries, Portugal, Italy, and Spain. They refuse, have refused to carry French wine, which I think is sort of cool as f**k. Cause I like arbitrary constraints when it comes to wine lists and stuff like that.

They carry a little bit of French wine now. And there obviously is a French imprint in Latin America, but neither here nor there historically. But it's an awesome, awesome, um, store. Um, they have individualized relationships with a lot of growers and going there will, you know, totally upend what you think of South American wine. Um, and, and I think, you know, it's easy to poo-poo something that's new. I think a really important thing to understand about, you know, the wine world as it exists for us today is that, you know, you can't make broad generalizations about who can make wine. You know, it's such a global world. Um, you know, in the wine world, you know, you have, so like these guys in Argentina, this is three, three brothers making wine, you know, they will have worked harvest all over the world.

And, and typically when you're learning your skills as a winemaker from, uh, you know, harvest is the most significant time. And, and, you know, that window in the new world, what Thompson's like August to September, October, you know, a lot of cellar rats, they'll work one harvest in the Northern hemisphere, and then they'll jump to the Southern hemisphere and work another harvest. And people will do that for five years. Um, and so like the wine world is amazingly global. Um, and, you know, people are much more, you know, actually curious than they ever have been. Um, and, and, you know, historically in Argentina, there was one barometer Bordeaux, like they were looking at Bordeaux and that was like the one they wanted to make.

That was like it, but you know, the modern, like the modern generation, you know, they're just as curious about what's happening in Georgia, and for, uh, or with, or with, you know, some, you know, dude in Australia, you know, making, you know, pet mats, you know? So there's this like globalism to the wine nerd community that is really cool. And, and, you know, there's this like wonderful lingua franca among cellar rats. Um, that, that's, that's really fun. And, and I think like to the extent that you like dive deep and spend time with wine people, it's really fun that way. And, and like in regions that aren't, um, you know, really like status conscious, um, you know, there's like a wonderful egalitarian, egalitarianism about it too.

Like Argentina is like that in a really cool way. Um, from what I read, like Chile doesn't have as much of that. Like Chile is much more like oligarchical historically in terms of the influence of like money, like smaller numbers of families. There's an awesome natural wine scene in Chile that I'm sure is like wonderfully even-handed and egalitarian, but like smaller producers in lesser known regions, um, you know, it's, it's just like a really fun community and everybody, you know, is about like sharing the like joy of drinking wine. Um, can you talk about some Malbecs in the U.S. And also, can you talk about the Malbec that you have sitting off to the side? People want to know. That was, uh, thank you for that segue, Thompson.

Malbec in the U.S., historically there was a lot more. Um, it was one of the grapes originally introduced, um, to, um, California, uh, post civil wars. I don't think people realize that like, um, right after the civil war. So a lot of people that came to, uh, California, um, uh, to mine gold, you know, nobody found gold. Um, the people that made the most money were the people that were outfitting, um, the people that were trying to find gold, but, uh, people had to find, you know, something when they didn't find gold. And a lot of them actually started to grow grapes. So there was a huge wine industry, um, in California after the Civil War.

Um, and, uh, actually the first varietally driven, or the first, uh, wine labeled, uh, Cabernet Sauvignon in California as a, a, a varietal wine was actually labeled 'Cabsoff/Slash Merlot', um, in, in determinate, um, uh, you know, quantities. So, um, you know, Malbec has always been an important part of that recipe. And that's consistent with, with its popularity in Bordeaux historically. Um, its fortunes have just waned. Um, you know, it, it's the same thing that happened in, in, um, uh, France, happened here, um, but, you know, on a larger scale. And it just wasn't a marketable grape. Um, you know, in, in, in some ways it was like a little harder to grow. Uh, prohibition happened, fucked everybody over. Um, you know, there were other grapes that, you know, were, were easier to ship around.

Petit Syrah, in particular, um, did really well. It's a grape called Derriff. Um, because it had these thick skins and you could send it across the country and, you know, send it to people to make, um, you know, their own Sacramento wine. Um, but, uh, it's just an accident of history. It's, it's coming back a little bit. People are starting to work with it, but, um, there's just not a lot of it, um, stateside and certainly even less of it as a single varietal wine. So it doesn't really have, I, I can't think of an American champion. Um, please correct me if I'm wrong, uh, among the chatters of, of, of Malbec as a single varietal entity. I wish there were because it actually like does pretty well in cool, even cooler climates.

But, um, you know, I, I can't think of one. That Walsh family wine that we had, that was a Malbec, wasn't it? That one that we had out of barrel? Oh, yeah. That was awesome. Yeah. They certainly work with Tannat. Um, um, so, you know, I think people are, I think the fun thing again about, you know, the, the, you know, latest generation of wine consumers is, you know, they're less invested in, um, you know, uh, what they can mass market and more invested in, you know, what strikes their fancy and, and, and, you know, hopefully people will taste more wines like this and, and see a place for Malbec in that pantheon. Um, so, for the sake of this other wine, I wanted to bring this to the, because this is, uh, from the family Zaccardi, um, and, uh, they are in the Uco Valley as well.

And this speaks to, um, kind of a, a very different, um, you know, kind of, uh, winemaking, uh, bit, uh, esoterica, which is a role that vessels have to play, um, in winemaking. So, uh, this wine is called, uh, Concreto. Um, it is available on our, uh, wine store, shameless plug. Uh, it is fermented in these alien-like vessels. Uh, so these are concrete eggs. Um, and concrete has much to recommend it, um, as a vessel for fermentation. Um, uh, you know, typically, you know, there's this, you know, kind of A or B, um, paradigm for the sake of how do we ferment and age our wines. You know, it's either a grape or it's oak vessels. Um, stainless steel is inert, so it imparts no flavor, uh, but it is not oxygen transmissive at all.

It's also not great, uh, as an insulator. Um, oak, uh, a little better as an insulator, although, you know, certainly not great. Um, uh, it imparts its own flavors, the newer it is, uh, but it is very oxygen transmissive. Um, and that can be useful for a grape like Malbec, um, because that oxygen influence softens some of the acidity and, and can soften some of the tannins. Concrete is this third way, somewhere in between, uh, so it imparts no oak flavors, but it is more oxygen transmissive than, um, stainless steel. And then it has this great moderating influence for the temperature of the wine during fermentation. And then on top of that, these womb-like eggs that look like something from, uh, you know, the Alien movies. It's a little horrifying.

Um, but you get this great circulation of the wine during fermentation, and that keeps the fine lees suspended, and it gives the wine an amazing, amazing texture and mouthfeel that you wouldn't come by otherwise. Concrete itself is also a little bit alkaline, so it tends to dampen some of the acidity in high acid grapes and give the wine itself more breadth, uh, on the mouthfeel. And, uh, there are a lot of winemakers in, um, in Argentina who are hugely passionate, um, uh, devotees of concrete as their primary fermentation and aging vessel. And, um, both the Zorzal and the wine I'm drinking, Concreto, um, from the Zuccardi family, um, are aged entirely concrete. And Zuccardi's super cool. So, um, uh, third-generation winemaker here, he's dreamy.

Um, he's like a bit of an Argentine love boat who, you know, is tremendously skilled and, uh, more handsome than, you know, he should be. Um, at any rate, he went in a very different direction from his father and his grandfather, who was a famous engineer who actually, um, outfitted a lot of wineries with irrigation, uh, and, and he said that, um, he wanted to move the wines in a, um, you know, kind of, uh, softer, you know, less heavy-handed, less oaky direction. And, um, you know, it's not necessarily something that his father would have done himself, but there is this, you know, kind of, uh, you know, embrace of, uh, change, um, in Argentina.

And, again, I think it speaks to the fact that you're dealing with a newer region and, and people are just more likely to, um, you know, from one generation to another, empower, um, the, the youth. And, and it's super cool. And, and there are a lot of really awesome women, um, you know, making wine and, um, affecting change, um, uh, in Argentine cellars, uh, Catena Zapata in particular, um, uh, there's a, a wine school associated with UC Davis, um, that they operate, you know, so what, what kind of limitations occur, um, at higher altitudes, you know, what is, um, particularly special about Malbec in Argentina. Um, so they've really become this driver of innovation, um, in wine, not only in their small corner of the world of South America, but globally, um, in a way that, you know, transcends, um, you know, this place that they once had, as a historical us around.

And I think that's totally worth celebrating. Um, and, and what concrete gives for me is, um, you know, ageability, you know, you get something that has this purity but also has, you know, a grip structure. I find very often you get a little more of a dimension of tannin in concrete-aged wine, but you get, you know, apparently higher acid, whether or not the pH is higher or lower, but everything feels more integrated. The fermentations tend to take longer because the temperature is moderated, but everything just feels more cohesive in a really, you know, kind of profound way, and I like that about the wines. And this one, in particular, is like hugely floral, and it's changed a lot even in the course of our class.

When I first opened it, it was a little tight, but it's come into its own really beautifully and has all this like kind of violet floral thing happening now. So I'm going to read one more overwrought quote for you all here, and we'll toast, and then we can close out with questions. Thank you, as always, for joining us on this gorgeous day, but this is, again, fun. Thank you. Pablo Lacoste, he says, So Malbec was given the opportunity to rediscover his old friends, those whose companionship he had cultivated in the Middle Ages, in the times of Queen Eleanor and the Templars, or the peasants and kings of modernity, Henry IV, Francis I of France, Peter the Great of Russia, Catherine. It was a reunion of centuries. In a way, those characters from history and legend come back to life every day in each glass. Before I could see the comments on the side. To that, as always, to you all, thank you for joining us. Thank you for staying safe at home with us. We are alone together. Cheers.

That's Wunderbar. Thompson, what do you got for us? Oh, you're muted. Did I mute you? No? No, no, I'm good. I'm here. I'm back. I'm back. Your hair is fierce today, for the record, Thompson. You're looking great. Oh, thanks. That's what I get when I wear my delivery hat during the day. Nice, nice. It's a good look for you. Thanks. I don't know. You know, people are just chatting right now. Okay, yeah. Should we leave the chat live and just talk to each other about this? Want to talk about bugs again? Yeah, I know, I know. I don't want to potentially offend any pug owners. Yeah, I know. I don't want to potentially offend any pug owners. Yeah, I know. I don't want to potentially offend any pug owners.

People actually do, people do want to know, that's a great point, what your general pairings would be and which of these wines you would choose to go with steak? I think all of them. Actually, I will say, so fascinatingly, so we're dealing with like 12 and a half percent alcohol on the cohort, but for me, it's like the bloodiest of the bunch. And also like, you know, steak is not, you know, we're dealing with an animal with a lot of different cuts. So, you know, what's my cut of steak, you know? Is this, you know, a leaner cut? Is it a fattier cut? But I want something, you know, core. I feel like the tannins are a little coarser, but I'd be happy to drink all of these with steak.

You know, some kind of, you know, chimichurri sauce situation just feels right with the Argentine ones. And I feel like, you know, the the marriage of those flavors, the herbal sauce steak with Malbec just feels really perfect because it's a wine that, when it's done well, has these big leafy herbal kind of tonalities. And I love that. I live for that, you know? You know, if you're not a vegetarian or if you're, you know, you live for that, but like it, you know, it feels very, it feels very organic in a really awesome way. People, you, you did a really good job with that. And I think that's, I think that's a really good way to, you know, to, you know, actually open up a world of questions about the concrete egg situation.

And people want to know how big they are and how long, generally, people age them in. Traditionally, from what I've seen, they're about six feet tall. Yeah, so they're, it depends on the egg. I want to say that, you know, they're, they'd be a little, they'd be more like demi-mouche size, so they'd be like, you know, 500 to 2,000 liters at least. Yeah. And they're, they're more, it's, it's fascinating. So like they're more expensive than stainless, they're less expensive than constantly buying oak, and they're obviously like more sustainable than constantly buying oak. They're sometimes less practical for wineries because obviously you can't easily move them. They're actually kind of finicky to clean. You can't use hot water to clean them because, especially if they they have metal fittings, because the concrete can expand and crack.

They're not lined, right? No, no, exactly. Um, so you have to be really careful about how you clean them. Um, they're, but that said, um, you know, once you kind of work with them enough and get used to their idiosyncrasies, they're, they're ageless. Um, you can age wine in them as long as you want. The other benefit they have is, um, they keep the, so when you're making red wine, um, you, you are worried a lot about, um, what's called cap maintenance. So you're, you have, um, the juice obviously, and then you have the cap, which is all the stems, if you're using stems, but, uh, skins and seeds that floats the top during fermentation through the percolating action of CO2.

And, um, how you manage that cap is really important to how you basically, infuse your wine that is a tea with all the flavors that those skins have. What's cool about the eggs is that they, um, keep the cap submerged with smaller surface area at the top, which is kind of like what you're going for in, in cap maintenance in the best possible way. Actually, these guys in Cohort Thompson, they, um, they top off in their cement vats after primary so that they have a layer of juice above the cap in the tanks that stays through malolactic fermentation. So that's, that's really the end product. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I, I, so it should be said, so this, we're getting very nerdy and I hope we're not losing too many participants here.

Um, this is more of a conversation between Sarah and I than with the rest of the group, but at any rate, um, uh, so wine develops as astringency through the action of, of, of tannins, which are these like long chain polyphenols. it is the case though, that, um, counterintuitively, if you give wine more contact with the skins, the tannins tend to soften and they tend to be resorbed into the grape skins such as they are there. Um, and so I like a lot of red wines that have cartoonishly long, um, skin contacts. The problem with that is in a workaday wine context, it can be hard to maintain that, um, regime without spoiling the wine.

So, uh, the longer you do that, the more you invite, um, you know, uh, Mount Beesons from these biological actors, but, uh, concrete kind of does that for you, uh, in, in a cool way. Um, and it's, it can be expensive, but it's also like, it could be a local material. Um, you know, there are a lot of different, uh, people that are like selling boutique-y concrete eggs, um, that are super expensive, but it is very much in vogue as a fermentation vessel. Um, people are like hugely invested in the shape. The egg-like thing is trending. It feels very goopy. It feels very Gwyneth Paltrow in a way that I don't know if I'm entirely comfortable with, but, um, there is something to the, um, the circulation during fermentation. Like that's, that is, there is a scientific basis for that above and beyond whatever Gwyneth is about for sake of her wines. I don't know if I answered the question.

I got to mention goop. So, so, #goop. So, if we have any, yeah, yeah. You went with it. You ran with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's still more questions about concrete eggs, but there was this other wine that you mentioned in your email that was a great steak wine that you haven't talked about at all, and people want to know what it was. Well, there's a, I think, uh, uh, Alagiza. Yeah, that one. So, that's, um, from cartoonishly old vines. Those are over a century old, um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's special. Um, and I, I think, like, that's something that younger winemakers in Argentina are also kind of exploring is, is this wealth of history that they have there. So, there are, there's a lot of old vine material.

Um, it might be from, unlike the grapes, it might be from, like, it's not going to be in Uco Valley. It's going to be in, um, you know, Maipo or, or, or elsewhere in Mendoza, but there are 100-plus-year-old vines, just like there are really old vineyards in California. And, and the old vineyards in California, they're not in, they're not in Napa. They're, you know, closer to Lodi. They're closer to Central Valley. Um, and, you know, people are playing with that. This particular wine, um, is, uh, I, I, I actually haven't tasted it. I meant to bring a bottle home. Uh, but, uh, uh, we get it from, uh, Joffrey, who's a, a friend of the pod. Um, and, you know, you develop these relationships as a wine buyer with, with, uh, the people you buy wine from.

And it's, it's different than, a typical kind of, like, salesman-buyer relationship. It's a little more, like, kind of simpatico, like, you know, we're, you know, brothers in arms for the sake of, you know, intellectual inebriation. And, uh, uh, Joffrey, uh, said that, you know, this is, like, the, you know, shit. This is, like, the greatest Argentine Malbec I've ever had. Um, and, and I also have this, like, huge soft spot for, um, like, these New World wines that are kind of, like, old school New World in the sense that, like, they don't taste like anything that could come out of the Old World. And because they're, like, sappy and ripe, but they're also, like, elegant and multifaceted and awesome. And, and I think the Finca has that.

Um, and, and the other thing, too, is that, like, you're dealing with something that, you know, with those old vines, with the history that it has, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not inexpensive. You know, you're talking, you know, $60 that you're throwing down for a wine. Um, and, you know, I'm not going to pretend that's within everyone's means. You know, but by the same token, like, if it was from, you know, Margot or Sonnestef or Chateauneuf or wherever, like, it would be $160, not $60. Um, and, and I think that's, that's worth celebrating in and of its own right. I have a really important question for you. Go. So, you have three options for what you're going to do next.

Um, and I think that's, that's what you're going to do next. Um, and I think that's what you're going to do next. Um, and I think that's what you're going to do next. career path will be based on the chat. Okay. Um, you can author a book with John Sager? Yep. Start a winery. Wait, you have to wait until you hear all the options. You can start a winery. People are wondering whether you've made wine before. And then three, three, are you going to start a tour company for all of the wineries and all the places that we've talked about thus far and let everybody go with you? Um, that sounds like the most entertaining and the most lucrative. So, naturally, I'm probably going to do number two.

Um, and, and start a winery. Everybody would like you to do all three. I know, I know. I've not, I've not made wine before. Um, I aspire to eventually make wine. I feel like I don't know enough. Um, uh, you know, I think that, you know, there's a very, there are like different perspectives in, in the wine trade. There, there is, you know, the consumer perspective, there is my perspective, there is more about the breadth of wine than it is like the singular depth of making a wine from, you know, vineyard to glass. Um, I, I really prejudice the, um, the winemaker, um, uh, perspective. Um, I mean, I, I could make a wine. I don't know if it'd be any good. But, but, um, you know, I'll get there.

I, I have no doubt that I'll get there eventually. I know enough people in the Finger Lakes at this point, um, for the sake of sourcing fruit, that you know, there'll be a, it, it won't be Cuvée Viljensen, you know, that's a terrible name. Uh, it'll be, um, you know, wildly, uh, imaginative and digressive for the sake of the name. But, but, you know, that will exist at some point. As opposed to touring, um, I'll be satisfied when I can leave my zip code, let alone, you know, let alone, you know, hosting wine tours abroad. But I think, I do thank the commentariat for the sake of, uh, the, the suggestion. Um, my, honestly, like, I hope that like, uh, you know, some talent scout from Hulu is watching as we speak.

And it's like, we got to send this motherfucker to [insert wine region here] because that shit's going to be entertaining. Um, uh, but I don't know if that'll happen. So. We've got to know people. Yeah, I know. I think it can happen. Um, do you know, I, I don't know. I, I can go back to asking you more questions about concrete eggs, but. I like the concrete egg is such a, uh, what, what is, what were the other questions about concrete eggs? Well, people want to know where it's used. A lot, a lot of, a lot of more suits. Um, so, so Jim has one. He doesn't, he doesn't know what to do with it. He hates it. It kind of pisses me off.

Uh, um, it was more, but that's more like a, like a Jim drunkenly, like took a flyer on something as opposed to like a conscious decision to work with concrete eggs. Um, it's a really good question. I can't think of, um, actually the, so fascinatingly, enough that people at cake bread, um, that made a concrete egg, a big part of the short a production, uh, Chardonnay is really well in, in, in concrete. Some, some grapes work better than others. Um, now, but Chardonnay is really long concrete and they've, they've played with it a lot. Um, uh, which kind of defies, I think people's expectation of what that one would be. Um, there are a lot of more astute, um, you know, kind of younger winemakers that there's a bit of a, there's a financial barrier, um, in terms of buying the eggs.

Um, and there are alternatives to like, there, there are some like egg-shaped vessels that aren't expensive as concrete that you kind of get some of the same use out of. Um, but you can actually like lift them and it's actually like concrete. The other thing too, is like, it's, it's aesthetic. They look kind of cool. If you're into that whole like alien, you know, um, egg aesthetic, like I think, but they're, they're, they are kind of impractical because you have to empty. We talked about the cap, but like you have to, you have to separate after you, you kind of like ferment a red, you have to separate that free run juice from the cap, which you then press, which is your press use and good winemakers will keep those separate.

They do here. Um, I don't know what they do here, but anyway, um, uh, and logistically that's a lot harder if you have this concrete like thing that you can't move at all. Um, so I, I don't know, like it, the, the coolest thing about it for me is the heat retention. So like the fact that like it is a buffer. So, you know, for the sake of, um, you know, wines that you want to keep colder, it keeps them colder for the sake of red ferments. It's actually about, um, you know, moderating the extremes of temperature. Um, so it won't get quite as hot, but it also won't get quite as cold. It's, it's like a, you know, um, it's a Goldilocks. And, and, and wines in their gestation tend to be kind of Goldilocks-y.

Um, uh, and, and I think like a lot of winemakers do find that that vessel, you know, the, the fermentations in particular, even more so than the aging, um, is, is like, you know, just more, um, it's more elegant, like better. Um, so. Donkey and goat uses it. Oh, nice. Concrete eggs. I'm trying to go through the chat right now and see if there are any other questions. All right. Well, I think we're shedding, we're shedding people. Um, I see a lot of familiar faces in the mix. Uh, Heidi, love you. Yoda gun. Great to see you, sir. Um, thank you guys, uh, for hanging out this long. Uh, get outside, please, uh, if you're in the DMV and enjoy the weather. What do you got, Thompson?

Will you just go briefly over what you did at the beginning of the class, what we're donating on Thursday and about, oh yeah, yeah. So, so once more, um, if you're in the DMV and in your position to, um, you know, purchase anything from us, uh, this Thursday at Tail Goat, um, all orders placed for pickup and delivery at Tail Goat on Thursday, um, uh, the, uh, both of the proceeds, um, all the, um, uh, everything for the sake of your food purchases, everything after our costs, the sake of, of beverage purchases, will go to Campaign Zero, um, which is an outgrowth of the Black Lives Matter movement, but, um, uh, specifically, um, uh, kind of like tailored to recommendations for reforming police practices on the ground so that there are zero lives lost to overly aggressive police action.

And then across the Revelers Hour bulk of goods, all sandwich sales will go to Campaign Zero as well. And it's what little we can do. And again, I think we're hugely proud of the folks that we have worked with that have been on the ground this week and have been invisible actors on the ground for the sake of this movement. And we want to take action for our own part. And for people who are outside the DC area, I just recommend donating directly to Campaign Zero? Yeah, please just give to Campaign Zero. There are a lot of really amazing social justice organizations that do work like this. One of my favorite historically has been the Sentencing Project. It's kind of a different issue than police reform, but that is more about criminal justice reform.

The ACLU does amazing work across the board, both for the sake of reforming policing practices and for criminal justice reform as well. But I think it's easy to feel, you know; I'm speaking as a cartoonish little guy, but I think it's easy to feel, you know; I'm speaking as a cartoonish little guy, but I think it's easy to feel, you know; I'm speaking as a cartoonish little guy, but I think it's easy to feel, you know; I'm speaking as a cartoonish little guy, white dude, and I'm not in a position to protest because, you know, I'm worried about bringing that back in terms of the pandemic to our workplace, but it's easy to feel powerless. And I think at the very least, you know, making a financial contribution to, you know, a relevant organization is a really powerful way to do that.

And I think people underestimate that. And, you know, make your voice heard on social media, certainly. But, you know, there are a lot of amazing non-governmental organizations and non-profit ones that have been, you know, doing work related to these issues for a long time. And I will say, I think, you know, sadly, the only thing that has changed with respect to this issue is video. This has been happening, you know, since America was founded. The only thing that's changed is that people have cell phones. And I think that's the most horrifying piece of it. The only thing that's changed is that people can document it. And because of that, the world is taking notice. And I think we all, you know, need to remember that and take action accordingly. But that's all I had to offer. But at any rate, you know, we'll be doing what we can on Thursday. And, you know, on top of that, if you want to buy some, you know, Tail of Goat or Rev Ozara merch to wear while you protest or while you give, that's available online as well. But at any rate, I want to toast to you guys as well. This is, you know, a highlight of my week. And I'm grateful that you made it such.