The Past, Present, and Future King: Cabernet Sauvignon from Bordeaux to the Broader World

Class transcript:

All right, we've released the hounds. Welcome all. Happy Sunday to everyone. Pleasure to have you all in our midst. We're going to get class started here relatively shortly. You all are very punctual and impressively so. So, just for the sake of provisioning, today we are covering the king of grapes, the self-anointed king, Cabernet Sauvignon. And the idea for this exercise was that everyone was bringing two wines to the table, as is tradition with stay-at-home wine school. One of those being a more classic exemplar of Cabernet Sauvignon as it exists in Bordeaux, which is to say, a blend. And there's a recipe for Bordeaux that we'll talk over very shortly, of which Cabernet is a hugely important part. But the idea, for the sake of provisioning, is that you have one Bordeaux.

Ideally, that Bordeaux should be Cabernet Sauvignon heavy. If you've been able to do a little bit of digging about these wines, and you've discovered the blends, that's brilliant. Not to worry if you have no idea what you're drinking. We can, you know, do a little digging after the fact. The idea here, though, is that you are trying to understand Bordeaux better as a region and Cabernet Sauvignon better as a kind of one leg of the Bordeaux stool, if you will. And then the wine that is not Bordeaux, hopefully, is a single varietal Cabernet Sauvignon. It is a single varietal Cabernet Sauvignon that exists outside of Bordeaux, ideally from somewhere in the world beyond the continent. And a single varietal Cabernet Sauvignon has a very different signature than Cabernet Sauvignon as it exists in its original home, which is Bordeaux.

So, again, if you all have any questions about what's a crack open, or, you know, just things that you'd like me to address over the course of this talk, over the course of this class, don't hesitate to hit us up with those. We have Joan in the mix, back in the mix today, and she'll be helping me navigate the chat box because you guys keep it coming faster and more furious than I could ever monitor while conducting this lesson. It's a bit like, you know, rubbing your belly and patting your head, and unfortunately I'm not capable of that, so Joan helps keep me honest. Thank you very much, Joan. Some starter questions, actually, Bill, if you don't mind. Oh, great. Yeah, let's take a couple. Yeah, Eileen, she's got a Bordeaux, but no Cab in it.

Is it still worth opening? It's a Merlot and a Cab Franc. So, that's a great question. I, you know, Bordeaux is a fascinating region, and Merlot is actually the most widely grown grape in Bordeaux. It is very worthwhile as a foil. So, this whole series of lessons is based around tasting two wines at a time. Two wines together and trying to understand the one wine better, you know, by comparing it to something else. And Merlot and Cab Sauv are very useful foils. That's why they're grown together, and that's a topic that we'll explore further in this lesson. So, it's absolutely worth opening that. You'll get a better sense of what Merlot brings to the party and how it's different than Cabernet Sauvignon. And those two grapes are actually related. They're siblings.

They are both offspring of Cabernet Sauvignon. And should the group start with the Bordeaux or the Cab Sauv? We're going to start with the Bordeaux. Bordeaux is at the 45th parallel. It is a more marginal climate than most of the corners of the world that make Cabernet Sauvignon as a single varietal wine. So, we're going to start with the lighter wine, the more elegant kind of old world style offering. We're going to start with Cabernet Sauvignon as it originated. We're going to start with Cabernet Sauvignon as it spread more broadly throughout the world. Do you have anything else, Joan? Nope. Those are the two to start with. So, let's get started. Thank you all for joining us. This is our fourth class. It remains the highlight of my week.

And I thank you all for the pictures, the emails, the questions, not least of all the donations to our Employee Relief Fund. It has sustained us through this crisis. Thank you. And we'll continue to sustain us. And we're thrilled to have this forum to connect with you all. You know, everyone of us has been touched by this crisis. You know, some more so than others. There are all sorts of brave souls facing it every day. Joan's husband among them. There are many people that have lost loved ones and friends. And, you know, our heart goes out to you. I hope that this forum, this, you know, celebration of something as simple and eternal as wine is a lovable distraction in the midst of all of, you know, those burdens for you all.

So, thank you for joining. We're going to kick things off as we are wont to do with a bit of verse. We're getting more sophisticated here. So, we're going to embrace the wonderful world of screen sharing. As it concerns the Zoom portal. So, I've got a bit of verse for you. And this is from William Stafford, who's a former U.S. poet laureate, famous pacifist. The poem is The Way It Is. There's a thread you follow. It goes among things that change, but it doesn't change. People wonder about what you are pursuing. You have to explain about the thread. But it is hard for others to see. While you hold it, you can't get lost. Strategies happen. People get hurt or die. And you suffer and get old. Nothing you do can stop times unfolding.

You don't ever let go of the thread. And that is, you know, lovely wisdom. You know, for life's sake. But as it concerns the grape that we are diving into today, Cabernet Sauvignon. I love that notion of the thread that you follow. Because Cabernet Sauvignon is a grape with a really strong sense of itself. It remains consistent. Something about it, you know, kind of imprints itself on the wine regardless of who's making it and where it's grown. And that's the point of view I want kind of everyone to consider for the sake of the exercise today. We're going to look at Cabernet Sauvignon as it exists in its birthplace in Bordeaux as part of a blend. We're going to look at Cabernet Sauvignon as a single varietal wine.

I want you to consider what is intrinsic, you know, what is irrevocable about the grape. What is essential about Cabernet Sauvignon that you like, that you don't like, that makes it worthwhile in one place as opposed to another. So that's our exercise. For the sake of this lesson today. This being our fourth class, we're going to revert to form a little bit. And we're going to try to put tasting at the center of this lesson. So I'm going to give you a brief natural history of the grape. Because I always like to start there. I always like to consider where the grape came about. Some of the most interesting research happening today in wine is dedicated to this notion of what they call ampullosity.

This notion of where was this grape born and what does that say about it? What does its lineage say? How people have brought it into the world and used it. And that's always a great place to begin. And that's where we're going to start. But before we consider Bordeaux, the region and the other corners of the planet where Cab Sauv arrives, we're going to start by tasting. So let's move into this consideration of Cabernet Sauvignon and its lineage. It is a very ubiquitous grape, Cab Sauv. It has become the quote unquote king of grapes. But it is a relative newcomer to the pantheon of grape varietals. Not to put the cart before the horse. All grape varietals come from one species, Vitis vinifera. Cabernet Sauvignon is just one of those breeds of dogs, as it were.

It is the cross. It is one of the most popular varieties of Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon Blanc. So this most masculine, this most showy, this most impressive, you know, lawyer friends with your expense account of grapes is actually the offspring of a pretty aromatic, almost vegetal grape in Cab Franc. And a white varietal in Sauvignon Blanc. I find that hugely fascinating. And it's worth considering. For the sake of this particular grape, how you have something that can take on characteristics that aren't, you know, necessarily consistent with its folks, with its parent, that are unexpected. And that's worth celebrating for the sake of this grape. It first emerged on the left bank of Bordeaux in the region that is still home to the most famous Cabernet Sauvignons in the world.

To this very day. The first documented plantings among them at the Chateau Mouton, which is to this day a first growth. The Rothschild family has appended its name to the estate. So it's not just Mouton anymore. It's Mouton Rothschild. Cabernet Sauvignon is a famously late ripening grape. It does everything later than most other varieties. It looks bluish on the vine. And it has very tiny little grapes. Its clusters are strewn with them. And because of that, it is a grape that has incredible tannic structure and imparts that to its wines. So all the things that make a wine deep and inky in color come from the grape skins. And then the tannins. Those long chain phenols that ultimately create that perception of kind of tea leaf like a streaming scene wine.

Those come from the skins as well. And Cabernet Sauvignon is chock-a-block with those. Much more so than a grape like Pinot Noir, which we considered in our previous lesson. Now, I'm going to read you all a really great description of Cabernet and the types of flavors that it can bring to the party. This is courtesy of Wine Spectator, but I like it as a survey. They say, at its best, unblended Cabernet produces wines of great intensity and depth of flavor. Its classic fruit flavors are black currant, blackberry, plum, and black cherry. It should be said, though, that classically, Cabernet Sauvignon is noted less for its fruitiness than its full tannins. And its ability to maintain great acidity as it ripens. That's my interjection.

The folks at Spectator say, it can also be marked by spice, like star anise, tobacco, cedar, licorice. In warmer areas, it can be supple and have ripe, jammy tones. In cooler areas, its herbal and mineral flavors will be more pronounced. So, there is a spectrum in terms of the kinds of flavors that Cabernet ultimately brings to the party. And that's, you know, definitely a good thing. Definitely worth, you know, considering for the sake of this particular exercise. Bordeaux is, as I said, kind of a marginal climate. And it is difficult to ripen properly Cabernet Sauvignon as a late-ripening grape. Because of that, the merchants, the wine growers of Bordeaux devised a blend. They said, you know, we have this late-ripening grape. It does really well in some corners of our region.

Most famously, what is called the Eau Médoc, which is strewn with gravel that soaks up the sun. And it's well-draining and allows this late ripening grape to come into its own. But in those years where we don't get sufficient sun to fully ripen Cabernet, we're going to need to hedge our bets. And the way they do that is by cultivating other varietals. Cheaply, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon. Merlot, rather, and Cabernet Franc. So Merlot and Cab Franc allow the vignerons of the Bordeaux region to hedge their bets. And Merlot and Cab Franc have very different attributes than Cabernet Sauvignon. So Merlot, which is again a sibling of Cabernet Sauvignon, is much fleshier. It's much fruitier. Merlot is typically the first grape to ripen in the region. It's reliable.

It can be maddening to work with because it ripens unevenly, but it's always going to ripen. It's typically the first red grape harvested in Bordeaux. Thereafter, about a week later, the merchants of Bordeaux are able to harvest Cab Franc. Cab Franc is much lighter in body, much lower in those astringent tannins than Cabernet Sauvignon. And it brings this wonderful aromatic, kind of almost herbaceous dimension to the party. And then a week or so later, occasionally even two weeks later, you get Cab Sauv coming into the mix. But, you know, you can imagine in a cooler vintage, especially before the world warmed, it was nice to be able to hedge your bets with grapes that were going to come in more reliably ripe than something like Cabernet Sauvignon.

And each of these individual constituents brings something fun to the party. So I have a Merlot here. Merlot is one of the foremost villages in the Omedoc, which is the most famous corner of Bordeaux proper. And it is famous for a first growth, Chateau Merlot. This is a wine from a younger winemaker, and he makes this from a close [removed]. It's a walled vineyard, and it's a spectacular wine. It's equal parts Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot. And what I love about it is that the one balances the other. So Cab Sauv, especially as it exists in a cooler climate like Bordeaux, can be kind of a hard wine. It can be acidic and harshly astringent and tannic. And Merlot balances that. It softens it.

It gives it this fleshy, fruitier tonality that makes the wine greater than the sum of its parts. And, you know, as you all kind of taste it, you know, you can taste it. And then as you explore the two wines in front of you, especially if you have one that's a single varietal in a blend, I want you to think to yourself, you know, does Cabernet Sauvignon work better for me as part of a duo or a trio? Or does it work better as a soloist? And, you know, something that winemakers, wine merchants are always considering when it comes to these particular offerings. And what I love about Bordeaux Dunwell is that the winemakers are very attuned to the taste.

They're very attuned to what each of these three grapes, there are other grapes that can go into the blend historically, but they're very sensitive to what each of them has to add to the mix. Joan, do you have any questions? I do, yeah. What do you mean when you say a duo or a trio? I'm talking about the grapes there. So in Bordeaux, the most important constituents for the sake of the red blends, they are Cabernet Sauvignon, Cab Franc, and Merlot. And those are grapes that are historically allowed in the wines of the region. They each, again, you know, bring something different to the party. And I like to think of it musically. You know, you have a bass, a tenor, and a soprano.

You know, in the context of this exercise, Cabernet Sauvignon would definitely be the bass. It is the skeleton structure. It is, you know, that deepest note. You know, Cab Franc would be more of an aromatic kind of top note, whereas Merlot is the mid-palate, is the fruit. It's the fleshiest. You see on this diagram that there are other grapes that are allowed in the region as well that you'll recognize. So Malbec, Petit Bordeaux, and Carmonniere. Carmonmiere by far, the most obscure, has gained a foothold in Chile, ironically, just as Malbec has become a soloist in Argentina, which is hugely fascinating. They're like bands with famous side projects, which I think is really cool. And actually, historically, Malbec was much more broadly planted throughout the Bordeaux region than it has come to be in the modern era.

So in as much as Cabernet Sauvignon is considered the king of red grapes, even in Bordeaux, that is a relatively recent phenomenon. That is not, you know, something that we should take for granted. And, you know, much of what we know about wine as it exists in the marketplace today is a relatively recent phenomenon. You know, wine trends change year by year, decade by decade. And today's king is tomorrow's copper. But by the same token, there's something timeless and worthwhile about these wines. And that's really what I want to kind of dig at. You know, Bordeaux is a little bit maybe unfashionable with the hipster wine set these days because, you know, it's become associated with these grand châteaux and forgery and all sorts of other nefariousness.

But it is amazing and, you know, hugely worthwhile. You have to, you know, kind of search through some lesser wines. There are gems there. And it can be amazing that. Can you give us the grape breakdown for the Château Brignard-Ducroux? You suggested, if you have it, they ordered the Saint Joseph from MacArthur. Oh, the Saint Joseph from MacArthur. I want to say that I can't off the top of my head. I apologize. I should be able to. But Saint Joseph, so the three most important communes on the Left Bank are Saint Joseph, Saint-Estephe, Margaux, and Pauillac. That particular wine, I believe, is 50 to 60 percent Cabernet Sauvignon. I want to hedge my bets and say it's closer to 50 with the book being from Merlot and then a smattering of other varietals.

But even in, you know, that Left Bank where Cabernet Sauvignon does, you know, the best, you'll typically see among the wines that are, you know, readily available, you know, at the most 50 to 60 percent. Once you hit the first growths, they'll get up to 70 percent Cabernet Sauvignon. But there's always something else in the mix. There's always, you know, a background singer lending, you know, flesh, you know, lending, you know, those, you know, other tones to the wine. Bill, as we go through all these wines and he's ordering them, how do you recommend they organize their wine cave? Oh, that's a hugely fascinating question. I would, again, I usually like to start in the old world. So for the sake of this exercise, I'm starting with my Margaux.

And, you know, and then, you know, move on to New World wines within the old world. Try to start with something that, you know, is likely to be a little lighter and less structured. I only have one Bordeaux, but if you have multiple Bordeaux, you know, I would think about starting with a wine that is, you know, more heavily based on Merlot or Cab Franc than Cabernet Sauvignon. So that would typically entail something from the right or the left bank. So I'm sharing with you all now a map of Bordeaux. And you can get a sense of where it lies in the world. We're at the 45th parallel, which is about the same latitude as the Willamette Valley that we went over yesterday.

And then zooming out here, or hoping to zoom out, you can get a sense of the broader region. So this is Bordeaux proper. You can see here the Eau Médoc, which is the dark purple region on this map. You really have to zoom in for the sake of the individual communes. But the colors are readily apparent. So you can see here. The Eau Médoc, which is the historic home to the finest chateau in Bordeaux. And that is very much Cabernet Sauvignon territory. That is because the Gironde estuary that you see here, that defines the region, deposited all sorts of gravel. And originally, the villages that we see here were swamps. But Dutch merchants drained those swamps in the 18th century. And they liberated these gravel soils that have now given birth to hugely famous wine.

And these particular offerings that are Cabernet Sauvignon heavy, they were used as gravel soils for the sake of drainage. And for the sake of reliable ripening. Because those hard gravels, they ultimately soak up the sun and allow a grape that can be fickle, in terms of its ripening, to ripen reliably in Cabernet. So, you know, I would say, you know, if you're going to start somewhere, start with something from the right bank, which is the other side of that region. Diane King. So, for the sake of this particular exercise, you can see the right bank defined by the regions that are on the north bank of the Dordogne. So, you have the Dordogne here. Okay. My mouse. Oh, my gosh. There. Okay. The audio. Sorry, James, you're coming in and out there.

Sorry. But the north bank of the Dordogne gives birth to these wines that are typically more low and Cabernet Franc heavy. And they tend to be a little lighter than the wines based exclusively on Cabernet Sauvignon on the left bank there. So, you know, kick it off with those right bank wines, move into the left bank ones, and then consider the New World thereafter. Next question. Bill. We often find that ordering Bordeaux at restaurants can be quite a chore. How do we order if we don't know all the châteaux? It is a chore. It is maddening. You know, even just buying wine in a retail outlet, it's really difficult to, you know, have any kind of sense of what the blend is going to be.

It's something that universally you have to, you know, do some deeper diving on and kind of seek out online. You know, honestly, it's something that I tend to rely on a sommelier for. People have a sense that, you know, they're going into a wine shop, they're going into a restaurant. There's a lot of, there can be a lot of anxiety about bringing someone over and admitting a lack of expertise. And I will say that, you know, for all that I know, I always ask for recommendations at wine stores that I like. At restaurants with, you know, good wine staff. And that's because they just have a better hold on or they should have a better, you know, handle on what they are providing than I ever could.

And, you know, even if I knew the wines, they'll have a better sense of what's drinking better, what's showing better, what works better with the food. So never be afraid to ask. You know, that said, there are certain rules that you can apply. And, you know, those are geographical tropes. So just to share this screen one last time. You know, again, so this region that's to the west of the Gironde, which is the Omedoc, those wines tend to be more heavily based on Cabernet Sauvignon. The wines, this is the left bank. The wines that are on the right bank, clustered on the north side of the Dordogne, those tend to be more Cabernet Franc and Merlot heavy. And then you have this ocean of wine in this region called Entre-deux-Mers, which is between the two seas.

Those tend to be more Merlot heavy as well. And they can represent some great values. There's a lot of plump that comes from that particular region as well. But failing the left bank, failing, you know, this corner of the world here in purple with those soils that are heavily based on those gravels deposited at the tail end of the last Ice Age, typically Bordeaux is a Merlot dominant wine. I think there's a lot of misconception when it comes to Bordeaux because of that. But typically, it is a Merlot dominant wine. Do Bordeaux's age well? Do all the grapes in the mix age equally well? So it ages exceptionally well. A lot of that is down to how the wines are made. And some of the grapes age better than others.

Cabernet Sauvignon has attained its place at the pinnacle of the Bordeaux pantheon because of that. Because wines derived from Cabernet Sauvignon age better than those typically from Merlot and Cab Franc, at least in this corner of the world. The wines that last the longest in this region tend to be the most prestigious. And Cabernet Sauvignon, the wines of the left bank, the wines of those First-Growths Chateaux, they have gained their prestige because of their ageability. And Cabernet Sauvignon has ended its place at the pinnacle of the Bordeaux pantheon. So it has everything to do with that. And that is because of its high acid and because of those coarser tannins. That's what enables the wine to hold out for a long time and age really beautifully.

In that same vein, should they be aged or can they also be drunk young? So there are a lot of people who, you know, think about these wines. And especially the most ultra-luxe among them, you know, trade in them, treat them as commodities. Who would say that you're doing the wine a disservice by opening it young. That you are committing infanticide by, you know, popping the cork on something right away. People actually use that verb, which is, you know, somewhat, you know, perverse. But a well-made wine, even one from a tannic grape like Cabernet Sauvignon. I think should drink well in its youth, you know, equally as well as it will in older age. And if you have the luxury, one of the most enjoyable experiences that you can have for the sake of enjoying a wine that you truly love is buying a few bottles, opening one in a year, and then coming back to it years hence.

I haven't, you know, been drinking, you know, wine seriously long enough to do a lot of that. But to track a wine across the years. Is a hugely illuminating and fun experience. And, you know, what you like about a wine in its youth could be different than what you like about a wine in its old age. Wines as they age tend to shed this veil of primary fruit. And tend to take on a more savory and more kind of forest floor, leathery, mushroomy quality. So they transform and they're enjoyable in a different kind of way. But I find them to be, you know, equally enjoyable in and of their own right. And tracking that progression can be really fun.

That said, there are some wines that are so acid driven and tannic that they're just not enjoyable unless they have a few years. And ironically, when people talk about like vintage charts and tracking vintages. The quote unquote great vintages are great because they're making wines that are designed to age. And they're making wines that are coarser and more acid driven and tannic. And take a little while to come into their own. So, there's a whole notion of restaurant vintages. Which are, you know, wines from, you know, lesser vintages. Maybe not terrible vintages. But, you know, what a collector might consider a mediocre vintage. And I love those wines. They tend to be great values. They tend to be much more precocious. They show better in their youth.

It's the kind of thing that, you know, I can put on a restaurant list. People can afford. And, you know, they're showing beautifully. Right out there. Out of the gate. So, you know, I think that's worth celebrating. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, good wine should be enjoyable. Whether it's a baby or whether it's, you know, geriatric. And Jessica asked similar to that question. Does the flavor profile change over time then? Oh, absolutely. So when I talk to our servers about tasting wine, we talk in terms of different types of aromas and flavors that are, you know, that you can tie to different stages in a wine's life. So we'll talk about primary, secondary, and tertiary tastes and aromas.

And the primary ones are down to the fruit itself; intrinsic properties of Cabernet Sauvignon as it exists in the vineyard. And then the secondary tastes and aromas are down to things that happen particularly in the cellar. So it's the action of the yeast on the vineyard. It's the action of the yeast on the grape musk, on the grape juice. It's the elabage. It's how those winemakers decide to treat the wine in terms of throwing it into oak or stainless steel or concrete or what have you. And then the last bit of that equation is what are called tertiary aromas and flavors. And those are down to aging in the bottle. And those are more savory. I talked earlier about the taste.

I talked earlier about the wine kind of losing those primary qualities and taking on, you know, more savory tones. The most enjoyable times in a wine's life are when they're displaying all of those, you know, rainbow's worth of primary, secondary, and tertiary. You know, it's when all of those things are hitting. It's when you have a sense of a wine not being young anymore, you know, showing some age, but still hanging on to that fruit that it had once upon a time when it was plucked, you know, from the vine. That said, there are some wines that move fully into a tertiary place. You know, they are gnarly. They're all musk room and forest floor. And those of us who like old wine can enjoy those as well.

So even a wine that's at the end of its aging curve can be enjoyable if you're into that. Can you talk a little bit about the differences in growths? First, second, third, artisan? I think. Yeah. Absolutely. So this notion of growths, first, second, third, fourth, and fifth, emerges out of a classification that was first kind of that first came about in 1855. So in the preparation for this grand universal exposition that was initially sponsored by Napoleon III, the merchants of Bordeaux, they wanted or they were called upon to identify the best wines of the region. And the way they did that is they just looked at their tables of prices. So they said the wines that fetched the highest price are the greatest wines.

And they established a table with the greatest Chateau in the region, first through fifth, and varying numbers of Chateau belonged to those groups. And the first growths, that was the smallest category of wine. So it's a bit of an ascending pyramid. So there were fewer of the first growths than there were the seconds and so on and so forth down to the fifth. Originally, there were only four first growths. And two of them were in Pauillac. And then one of them was in Margaux. One of them was outside. So you had Lafite Rothschild Latour in Pauillac. You had Margaux in Margaux and Aubrion in Graves, just outside Bordeaux proper. Mouton, which I mentioned earlier, which was one of the first places to grow Cabernet Sauvignon, was considered a second growth.

But they were livid about that and remained livid until finally the French government interceded and made them a first. So now there are five first growths. It's important to note that we are considering property. So last lesson, we considered Burgundy. Burgundy is very much an artist's wine, whereas Bordeaux is an entrepreneur's wine. So when we are ascribing value to these properties, we're not talking about individual vineyards. Now, these are estates. They're Châteaux that have these large holdings. And the vineyards have a lot of value. They have an important sense of terroir. You know, these estates derive their worth from the unique corner of the region that they occupy. But if, let's say, Lafitte decides to buy more vineyard acreage adjacent to its property, it immediately becomes first growth.

It doesn't matter what it was. It could have been, you know, Vendée France formerly, and suddenly it's first growth. So you're dealing with the original brands here. And I think that's what appealed to a lot of wineries outside of Bordeaux about, you know, kind of trying to reestablish and recreate these styles. So, you know, when people outside of France were trying, playing around with different grape varietals and trying to decide, you know, what to plant, what to grow, you know, what we make our name on. I think the natural tendency is to look at, you know, these, you know, famous estates that have succeeded as these brands and to say, you know, what are they doing well? Well, let's copy that. And a big part of what the first growths were doing well was Cabernet Sauvignon.

So it just so happened that those four and now five greatest estates in Bordeaux, as originally established by this 1855 certification, those were the wines that had the most Cabernet Sauvignon in them. And so people in Napa, people in Chile, people in Australia that were considering what to plant, you know, that wanted to make wine that was on par with the greatest wines in the world, they naturally thought that Cabernet Sauvignon was, you know, the key, you know, to making the greatest wine they could. So there's a lot of Petit Verdot grown in Virginia, but not all of them. There's a lot of Cab Sauv. If both are known to Bordeaux, why don't both work well in Virginia? That's really fascinating.

So it has a lot to do, actually, with the vineyard properties that make Cabernet Sauvignon work well on the left bank as opposed to the right bank. So in the left bank, they have a lot of gravel, a lot of really well-draining soils. And Cabernet Sauvignon depends; it depends on that drainage, and it depends on the gravel itself soaking up the sun. Heavier soils, particularly, you know, clay, tend to be cooler. You can think about, you know, working with clay; it is a lot cooler, and it retains water more readily than, you know, something like, you know, harder stone. And because of that, it's much harder to ripen Cabernet Sauvignon reliably on heavier soils. Virginia doesn't have a lot of that. It's a lot of well-draining land.

Our big problem in Virginia in terms of making great wine is that even though we're at about the same latitude as Bordeaux, we get one and a half to two times as much rain as they do. So drainage is essential. You know, if you can't find gravel and if you have even more water, then you need to find grapes that work better in those conditions. And Cab Franc, in particular, works much better in those conditions. It also ripens a little earlier, which makes it much more reliable. On the other end of the equation, Petit Bordeaux is pretty indestructible. So you can just let it hang forever. Cabernet Sauvignon, you know, its skins are thick, but they're not quite that thick. And Petit Bordeaux is a grape that you can let hang forever.

And let's say you have an occasional tropical storm come through, you know, at the tail end of September. You can just leave the Petit Bordeaux on the vine. And come back to it and you'll be fine. Cabernet Sauvignon typically will rot on the vine. It gives you a much more narrow window to harvest. So there are a lot of people working with Cab Sauv in Virginia. But there are, you know, very few people working with it successfully for that reason. Cabernet Franc, in my mind, is a much better fit for Virginia's terroir. A unique set of growing challenges than a grape like Cab Sauv. If they're growing Cabernet Sauvignon. Cab Franc and Merlot on the same estates in Bordeaux. Isn't it all Bordeaux? Yeah, so exactly. So Bordeaux is the region.

And we're talking about the individual components that ultimately go into the blend from that region. So the blend is synonymous with the region itself. And in terms of, you know, how the French identify the particular wines. It is geographic. It is geographically based. So, you know, they sell this not as a Cabernet Sauvignon blend. They sell it as Margaux. Because that connotes the rest. So the fact that it is Margaux means it is a blend of these other red varietals. What kind of cheese pairs well with this wine? So I typically like harder cheeses with Bordeaux. I find that kind of harder, saltier cheese. Like a Comte or, you know, Parm or like aged Gouda. Something like that would work really beautifully with Bordeaux. I think it runs roughshod over some runny or rind cheeses.

And then it just kind of like butts heads with like a blue cheese. Honestly, at the end of the day with the well-aged Bordeaux, what I find myself wanting more than anything is like a pâté. You know, it's like spreadable meat. Or a terrine. Or, you know, some kind of like funky, full-flavored roast. Like lamb or venison or boar or whatever. I want, you know, something meaty and hearty with a wine like this. We've got a few questions on chilling red wines. Can you talk about your thoughts on that? Yeah, so the gold standard for, you know, even fuller-bodied reds would be cellar temp. So typically that's somewhere around 60 degrees Fahrenheit. And, you know, that's what I aim for for the sake of these wines.

The gold standard at home, I think, is just throwing a bottle in the fridge about 30 minutes before you intend to drink it. Home fridges are pretty cold. And that 30 minutes will break things down enough to make them a little more expressive and enjoyable. What does 'claret' mean? And is it related to the British term 'claret'? I'm like clearly not saying these things correctly. Yeah, you nailed that, Joni. Yeah, so 'claret' is a historic term for Bordeaux. And it referred to formerly the fact that the wine had this kind of darker pink color. Classically, Bordeaux became a commercial product in England in the 14th century. The the the the kingdoms of England at that time and this corner of France united.

And that made the wines of Bordeaux really attractive to your average Englishman in his, you know, village pub. And the one that they drank at that time was called Claret because it tended to be lighter in color and lighter in body. Flash forward to the modern era. There is still a wine called Bordeaux Claret. That is a dark rosé, and it's really fun. It's very obscure, and they don't make a ton of it, but it's a modern-day kind of dark rosé that owes a lot to that historical style. Can you share your thoughts on how much you feel like Bordeaux top producers have skyrocketed in price due to their quality or more global demand? That's all about demand, and it's a it's a racket.

The whole thing's a racket, and you know, the thing about Bordeaux is that the names that people know constitute less than a one percent of the wine produced in the region. It's a wine lake. They make a ton of wine. A lot of it sucks, don't get me wrong, and then you have that like small, you know, fraction of one percent. The first gross that I talk about, the Lafite, the La Tours, and Moutons of the world, and those are not wines anymore. Those are commodities. You know, as grateful as I am to have tasted some of them, you know, I can't tell you that I would buy them ever. They're not worth it. You know, $10,000 for an individual bottle of wine, like that, you know, takes wine into a stratosphere that, you know, makes it accessible only to plutocrats, and you know, that is not what I love about wine.

You know, wine should be about, you know, the enjoyment of an individual product around the table as something that is essentially democratic, you know, that all people can afford. Bordeaux has become a victim of its own success, and you know, the 1855 classification was, you know, fucking genius. You know, they created, you know, these luxury brands in a lot of ways, like the first growth Bordeaux's were the original luxury brands, and that's something that people are still hanging their hat on to the extent that, you know, there's probably a counterfeit first growth Bordeaux as there is actual first growth Bordeaux in the world. And, you know, that's a problem. You know, once you reach that strata, the wine is not, you know, drinkable anymore. It's just a luxury good.

You know, it might as well be a fucking handbag. You know, and I think it's really important to make Bordeaux a wine again, you know, you know, to consider what it has to offer in the glass on an everyday basis, and I think that's what people are trying to do, is that there's a lot of great Bordeaux. This is great Bordeaux at $50 a bottle, which is not, you know, inexpensive by means. There is truly, you know, delicious Bordeaux from amazing estates at, you know, $15 at a retail outlet, and you can't say that of a lot of regions, and I think that's something that people sleep on when it comes to the wines of Bordeaux, and hopefully, you know, that's something that people will come back to, and, you know, I think I tried to do a poem that I read, you know, just getting at this idea of, you know, that thread that you hold on to, you know, part of tasting analytically, part of, you know, diving further into wine is about, you know, getting a better sense of what you like, as opposed to, you know, what the market demands, or what is hot or trendy, and, you know, those are the things you return to. Those are the things that make life worth living, that make wine worth drinking, and those are the things we're celebrating. A few questions about, like, how early you should open Bordeaux wines before drinking. Should you aerate it or decant it? If so, how long should we decant it, and how long, how early do we open Napa cabs? Just.

Yeah, so the, the issue of decanting is really fascinating. There are a lot of different schools of thought there. There are a lot of, like, food science people who will tell you that, like, decanting is kind of bunk. I can't fully enumerate the science of it for you. In my personal experience, having consumed, you know, a decent amount of, of nice and older wine, I think decanting is hugely useful, but I think it's useful in ways that kind of, you know, go against the particular, like, the perceived, you know, notions of why you should decant something. So, first and foremost, older wines, I am very, you know, kind of hesitant to decant at times. Old wine is fragile. It very often gives up the ghost very early.

I've opened old bottles and had people ask me to decant them, and I advise against it, and a lot of the reason that people want to decant is to separate the wine from the sediment, but the wine will fall apart. It'll be good for 15 minutes and then it will die. It will give up the ghost. By the same token, a lot of acidic wines benefit greatly from decanting. Acid is as much a reason to decant as tannin. I think people, you know, commonly, you know, rest on this notion that if something's tannic, the tannins will resolve somehow in the decanter, and that might happen a little bit, but acidity dampens way more in a decantor than tannins. Now, if something is perceptibly less acidic, it's less likely to decant.

If something is less acidic, it's less likely to decant. If something is acidic, it will, you know, for our sake, become less tannic because of the interaction of those two dimensions, but the acidity is what you're playing with, not the tannic structure, and I think that's really important. I think it's also important to, you know, explode this notion that we're only decanting red wines, you know? Young Riesling, you know, a wine like Clos de Coulee-Sorant, which is one of the greatest white wines. Wine superiors Chenin Blanc, you know, those are wines that beg for decanting. Well, it's much more important to think of acid structure than it is tannin or alcohol when we're decanting things. You know, that high acid will, you know, soften, and the wine will come into its own really beautifully if it's decanted.

Now, Bordeaux is a pretty high-acid red wine, so it can handle a lot of decanting for that reason, and Cabernet Sauvignon in the realm of red grapes is pretty high-acid, too, so, you know, that Cali cap, you know, begs for decanting as long as it's not super old. So, you know, don't be shy about it. You know, get after it. You can decant, you know, reliably, you know, half a day before, and the wine won't suffer for it. And, you know, that's just fun to play with. You know, there's no right or wrong with this shit, you know? If you decant too early, you know, c'est la vie. Taste it, you know, every hour. You know, treat it as, you know, this fun kind of science experiment and see what comes of it.

You know, exploring that, you know, rollercoaster ride of how a wine evolves is equally fun in and of itself, right? How old is an old Bordeaux? I mean, you could get to a century. You know, there are storied vintages that, you know, a century hence are still showing well. You know, I would say 20, 30 years. We had, I had the great fortune of tasting through a bunch of 1982 Bordeaux's when I was working at Comeau. Which is the fine dining joint I was at before we opened Tail Up Goat and Reveler's Hour. And we had a lot of 30th birthdays come 2012. And people were popping 1982 Bordeaux's because '82 was this incredibly heralded vintage that was celebrated by Robert Parker, among others. And those wines were universally showing incredibly well.

For me, the coolest thing about those wines was that they were showing well. They were showing about 12 and a half percent alcohol. So they belied this notion that you need 13 and a half, 14 and a half. You need like all this weight to make something age-worthy. These are historically, Bordeaux's a pretty wine. It's not huge. Cabernet Sauvignon as it exists in the new world has become much bigger because it tends to be grown in less marginal climates than Bordeaux. Because people who intentionally plant it, they don't want to deal with the headache of, you know, that, you know, the wine is so expensive. Recipe that trio you know they're saying why hedge our bets when we can just plant in a warmer region and reliably ripen our Cabernet Sauvignon so, you know.

New world examples tend to be fuller-bodied than something like Bordeaux, but that doesn't have a lot to say about how age-worthy the wines ultimately are, but I'd set the over-under at like two decades, I guess. Um, and some years seem to have some, some years seem to be better heralded than others. Why is 2010 better than 2013? And I'm not as good as I'd like to be with micro-Bordeaux vintages typically that has to do with so in a place like Bordeaux, that's kind of marginal; it's everything to do with fruit set, lack of hail, lack of late frost, and then on the other. end dry weather during harvest so those two windows basically when your embryonic grapes are developing and then when you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're grapes are at the end of that like ripening home stretch those are your most important windows so if the weather is good during those two windows you know you're gonna make a kick-ass wine that have to be casein in 2010 it should be said that these regions like Bordeaux and Burgundy which historically have been you know a little further north than might be ideal and all vintages are enjoying the string Of amazing vintages, because we've gone up already, you know one to two degrees Celsius, and that makes conditions they're a lot riper than they you know historically were.

I have like a long list of questions and go on forever, but I'm want to be sensitive of time; I'm gonna ask more to it and talk over Cali cab I just very quickly, and then what will come will come back alone. So for the sake of the the second wine I'm drinking here, this is near the end, ear to my heart, this is near and dear to my heart. I'm getting back to my wine run is from Laura Bissell. She is a fucking rock star. Everybody at both restaurants has a huge crush on her, who's ever tasted with her. She comes from Washington, D.C. She was a bartender at the Black Cat back in the day, and she went on tour with a bunch of bands, landed in the Bay Area, was like a spoken word poet in Barcelona, forged her resume to get a job at Matthiessen, which is one of the foremost wineries in Napa, and now makes wine on her own.

Total badass, like tattooed up. Like the second or third time I tasted with her, she had just had a son. She was breastfeeding while pouring for me. It was amazing. That's like all you need to know about her. She's a rock star. What's cool about Laura is that she makes wine in California, but she makes wine that kind of cuts against the grain. So what I like about this wine is that it's Cali Cab, but you're leaning much more into the minty, herbaceous side of Cabernet than you are into that like big, cassis, red berry group. And that's something that, you know, Cabernet, you know, can take on. It does both. It's, you know, in warmer climates, it gives you this like jammy, cedar-y tobacco box, but in cooler climates, you have all of these chemical constituents called pyrazines that represent like, you know, eucalyptus or mint ball.

And if it's done well, it can be fabulous or, you know, it's done, you know, not so well, then you end up with a Brussels sprout in the glass. But this one is done really well. This is from outside of Napa. It's from Clarksburg, which is in the heart of the Central Valley. I thought it'd be worth considering Napa itself, because I imagine a lot of you are drinking Napa Valley wines at home. So I'm going to share one more map. And Napa is a really fascinating region. Cabernet didn't become the predominant grape in Napa until the 90s. Prior to the 70s, Zinfandel was very much the most widely grown grape. Even into the 80s, Chardonnay had supplanted Zinfandel, because in the 80s, people were drinking more white wine than red.

But Robert Parker did a lot to change that. And Cabernet Sauvignon, you know, became a bit of a cult in Napa Valley. And it does really well in the Valley. The Valley kind of consists of two regions. So you have these mountain ranges, the Mayacamas and the Vaca range, and they define the Valley on either side. You have the Napa Valley that is vineyards planted on the Valley floor. And then you have the Napa Valley that is vineyards planted to the east and the west on higher altitude benches. And, you know, people who like the Valley floor wines, you know, they prefer the dense, inky, you know, extracted dried fruit qualities that those wines, you know, have to bring to the table.

You get a little more elegance out of the wines from, you know, higher altitude that I tend to want out of my, you know, Napa Valley offering. And then there's this additional variable of fog ascending. So, you are closer to the ocean at the bottom here, and you have fog that lifts and makes its way northward in the Valley, and typically doesn't make all, make the full trip up to Calistoga. But that fog cools things down quite a bit such that the regions that have more access to it tend to be a lot cooler than the ones that don't. But this notion of Cab as like the only grape in Napa is a relatively recent phenomenon. That said, you know, Cabernet from Napa, you know, tends to embrace all the bombast that, you know, we as Americans take for granted.

So, you know, take something like Bordeaux that, you know, has this, you know, shaved pencil herbaceousness to it in, you know, the best iterations. You know, Americans, they want to take that to 11. So, you know, let's run roughshod over that a little bit. I need to make something all about, you know, jammy cassis. And, you know, the miracle of Napa is when people carry that off well, it can be a wonderful guilty pleasure. That said, a lot of those wines, you know, to my palate, you know, are, you know, overbearing and brutish, you know, not unlike some Americans. But, you know, when done well, they can be remarkably elegant in spite of that, you know, kind of like boundless exuberance. But it's a very different animal.

It's a very different side of the Cabernet Sauvignon coin. And, you know, just returning to that original question of, you know, that single varietal dimension versus the blend, I think for your sake, tasting at home, worth considering, you know, what, you know, is the difference if I have a blend and a monovarietal one. You know, what's the difference between these two? What is Cabernet Sauvignon bringing to the blend? And what are the other constituent parts? And then, you know, how does it express as a soloist versus, you know, a wine that's part of a larger ensemble? What else do you have for me, Jo? Well, I have a request for someone. They would like you to try some of the wine and then talk us through your tasting of it.

Oh, great. So that'd be super fun for the sake of the second Cab. So my wines are, kind of, laute convention, to the extent that the Margaux I'm drinking, this guy, is actually a little bigger, sees New Oak, not a ton, but some, whereas the Papa Yaya sees none of that, because Laura really likes a wine that's fresh and easy drinking. So she wants to make kind of like the anti-Cabernet Cabernet. That doesn't always work. For me, Cabernet Sauvignon is not always a grape that wants to be fun and flirty. You know, sometimes it's like an actor with no comedic timing, but in this case, it works really beautifully. So, I can kind of get a sense.

So this is the Bordeaux and this would be the Cali Cab, which I'm going to taste, but just looking at these in terms of color, you get a sense of much more extraction on the Bordeaux than on the Cali Cab. And honestly, that's probably because Laura's picking her fruit a little earlier. Where she is, it's very close to Sacramento. It's pretty hot there. And the only way to keep this at, you know, 13.25% alcohol is to harvest a little earlier. So, you know, I'm going to line this up in the glass and swirl it just to get a sense of age and weight. You know, it's a young wine, and you know, it is seemingly lighter in the glass than a lot of other, you know, denser and keener Cabernets that I've had before.

This one's super fresh. This one's super fresh. So this smells like an Andy's mint. I have an amazing aunt, and Aunt Jane's house always had a like a cup glass full of Andy’s mint that when my parents weren’t looking, you know, it was always in the like the living room that no one’s spending time in, and I would always go there and, you know, grab an Andy’s mint. And so this reminds me of Aunt Jane's house. You know, and it's like that mintiness is something that people don’t always associate with Cabernet. But it's there in the glass and it’s almost like, you know, it’s such a visceral association for me. I can't, can't get past the Andy's mint note, but, you know, you got a little chocolate, you know, there's definitely some, you know, cassis in the mix, but, you know, it's not, you know, this like jammy red berry fruit. It's more of this tart, you know, raspberry kind of thing going on. You know, raspberries in particular are super tart. And then, you know, I find myself, you know, moving on to the palate.

So I opened this a solid hour before our class and when I first tried it, I didn't love it, honestly. The acid was raging and it was a little tight. It was a little hard. It was a little closed off, but it's much more enjoyable now. There's all sorts of like tart berry fruit in the mix on the palate and there's a juiciness to this one. It has no tannins to speak of, which is atypical of Cabernet Sauvignon. And that's very much a stylistic choice. So there are a bunch of different things that Laura has probably done in the cellar to make a Cabernet Sauvignon from California that plays against type. You know, but, you know, just kind of thinking about the way the wine works in the glass, the fact that it doesn't have any tannins to speak of makes it fresh, makes it juicy, makes it something that I want to go, you know, you know, the guy on the, you know, the label doesn't lie.

You know, he's just kind of throwing wine back. Can you actually share the label a bit more for the Cali Cab? We had a request for that. And then while you're doing that, can you go into why you're swirling and what that does? Yeah, absolutely. So exposing wine in the bottle, especially when it's younger wine, the bottle is, you know, the #Xtina genie in a bottle. And, you know, these are things that just need time to come into their own fully. And they need. Exposure to the air to, you know, become more multifaceted and interesting and, you know, swirling the wine does that it exposes it to oxygen and there are all sorts of chemical constituents that make the wine interesting in terms of the smell and the taste and those become more readily available to us when you do swirl them.

So, you know, it's not, you know, just about looking potty or, you know, sophisticated. It serves an important. It serves an important purpose for the. For the. Take a look. All right. And then go back to the questions. What is the significance of the brownish red color? Does that signify age? Yeah, that's all about age. Um, so, uh, and that's all about exposure to oxygen. Um, and ultimately, um, the more wine age ages, uh, the more, you know, kind of, uh, you know, Brown, um, you know, kind of, uh, color it takes on, uh, towards the edge of the glass. Can you, um, talk a little bit more about other Cali cabs? That you'd recommend like Fable? Uh, that's a, that's a great one.

That's much more typical of Cali cab in the sense that it's, you know, fuller bodied, um, you know, so one has way more extraction. It's a wine that, you know, compared to, you know, Bordeaux, uh, like the Margaux is going to be bigger. You know, the exercise that, you know, I've taken on is kind of backwards because, uh, California wine is lighter than, uh, the, the wine from France from Bordeaux proper. Typically. You know, those cult Cali cabs, they're bigger, they're denser, they're inkier, they're fuller fruited. They're all those things. Um, and you know, they're, they can be, you know, kind of wine for hedonists, but when they're done well, they're like a really fun, guilty pleasure.

And, you know, they're a bit like, you know, the dancing hippos from Fantasia, you know, they're nimble, uh, in a way that you wouldn't expect of, of something of that size. Um, do you have any recommendations for non Cali cabs? Yeah. So I didn't, I. I said that I didn't make the recommendation so done, uh, that I recommend is, is like, oh, gee, one of my favorite, uh, old school Cali cab for non, non Cali cab. I really love, um, South Africa, uh, Stellenbosch region produces wines that punch well above their weight, um, in terms of cost benefit. Um, and they tend to be a little more like old world in style, uh, but they still have this exuberance of fruit that you would expect of something from outside of Bordeaux proper.

Uh, and then, uh, Chile. Okay. Makes some fabulous wines. Um, and they, they're different, you know, depending on, uh, Chile, uh, from north to south has a series of, uh, river valleys. And depending on which one you're in, you know, the wine can be, um, you know, a little more robust and fuller fruited or a little more, you know, uh, elegant and Bordeaux-like. But I find universally, um, they have this nice balance of, um, you know, elegance and then like, you know, exuberant, uh, red. And then lastly, I'd say, uh, if you're someone that likes that big, juicy, dense style, um, uh, Washington state, uh, like Red Mountain is a great place to go. Or Australia, Kunawara, um, has this famous red soil, um, that turns out these dusty, um, massive, uh, red wines that are kind of like Napa valleys, but they tend to be a better value than Napa valley ones.

Um, Christian said when he thinks of Bordeaux's, he thinks of traditional winemaking style. So have you heard of anything more natural, more interesting, or more contemporary, less crazy fertilizers, et cetera? Um, so, uh, that's a great, that's a great point, Christian. Historically, you know, you have producers that are, you know, very much making wine as a commodity and trying to maximize their yields and maximize their profits. That's changed a lot within the last couple of decades. So, um, this particular bottle, um, is certified biodynamic. Um, so, uh, it is very much, you know, made in a sustainable environment. It's a very environmentally friendly, uh, kind of way. Um, you're not going to see a ton of people in Bordeaux, you know, making orange wine or making wine in amphora.

Um, you know, that doesn't, you know, exist as of yet, but the best estates are definitely working, you know, organically. Um, uh, if they're not certified, you know, then they're practicing and there is, uh, much more concern for, you know, uh, stewardship of the land in Bordeaux, than there was even a decade ago. Um, how is the Max that you recommended compared to other Chilean cabs or even, um, Calis? So that one was, uh, unoaked. So, you know, uh, it's kind of like the Yaya, uh, in the sense that it's like fresh, um, and herbal, uh, and, and fun. You know, the, the Cali cabs, other Chilean cabs that do sea oak are just gonna be much more full-fruited and dense and extracted and, and lush.

Have you ever heard of a concrete vessel for aging wine? Absolutely. It's a great way to age wine. So typically it's used initially in, in fermentation and then, um, uh, often in aging and it's kind of like a nice halfway house between using something like stainless steel. So the most important driver of aging in wine is exposure to oxygen and oak as a natural material is very porous. Stainless steel would be the other end of that spectrum. It's like no pores to speak of, uh, oxygen do not pass go, you know, wine made in this hugely reductive environment. Uh, concrete, um, is kind of a nice, um, balance. Uh, so you get a little more, um, you know, oxygen exchange than you would with something like stainless steel, but much less than you would for the sake of, of oak.

So, um, that oxygen exchange tends to soften the wine a little bit, uh, soften the rough edges. And then obviously you don't get any odor. You don't get any, uh, over oak influence, um, in terms of, you know, those toasted vanilla coconut flavors. So, um, you get, you know, something that's maybe a little more pure, but a little softer, uh, than it might be if it was aged entirely in stainless steel. Um, Antoinette mentions that the shelf life of the Pinot she drank last week was just about a day or a day of, um, does the Cab have a longer shelf life? Depends on the Cab. Um, I think it actually might. Um, you know, I find that. Pinot in particular is a little more fragile, um, as a wine than a lot of, um, like at least well-made Bordeaux's.

Um, just like, again, like across the board, red wine, uh, just tends to be less enjoyable day two, day three than white wine. And that's, that's universal, but I feel like I've had better luck with, um, Bordeaux than with like really pretty Burgundy. Burgundy's Pinot, Burgundy's just, it's just fragile. I mean, this is what we love about it, but, you know, it is, you know, it's, it's very sensitive. It's like that, you know, like that teenager that's like very into their feelings. You know, it, it has that. Cabernet, uh, is not that. Cabernet, you know, uh, it, it's, it's a little more hearty. And, you know, I, I think, you know, this wine would remain drinkable for at least a couple days. We have a lot of requests for orange wine for next week.

Or for bubbles for champagne, just an FYI. Um, but I still have a handful of questions from the. Yeah, so, um, let me, let me close, close things out with, uh, with the toast as always. Uh, thank you guys for, uh, hanging out. Uh, well over 200 of you, uh, still in the mix and bearing with us in spite of, uh, you know, technical difficulties and unmuted mics. But, uh, I wanted to kind of circle back to that thread, uh, that you followed for the sake of these wines and, you know, Cabernet, uh, having that sense of self. And, you know, just want to. You know, celebrate that, um, you know, about this, uh, particular varietal and explore it for, you know, think more in terms of as you drink different Cabernets, you know, what is unique to that grape.

And then, you know, what is, what about this wine is ultimately, um, you know, derived from a particular place or a, uh, particular producer. And then, you know, furthermore, uh, for the sake of, of drinking, you know, we have a wine in, in Bordeaux that, um, as Christian mentioned. It is not at the forefront of a natural wine scene. You know, you're not going to see a lot of tattooed sommeliers pouring, uh, Margaux, but it's nonetheless, you know, beautiful, worthwhile wine. And, you know, just encourage you all to drink widely enough and not to chase trends and, you know, to develop that own, uh, thread that you follow for the sake of the wines that you love. And, you know, to, to follow that, um, you know, throughout your drinking, drinking life.

Um, you know, at the end. At the end of the day, that is, you know, uh, the best way, uh, to enjoy wine, uh, as it is, uh, anything else in life. Um, so thank you all for participating and, and as always, uh, toast you, um, uh, alone, uh, together, uh, at home. Cheers. Uh, what else you got in the way of questions, Joni? All right. So I have, what's the Bordeaux stance on new oak? They love their new oak. Um, so there's, uh, a tradition. This is not unique to Bordeaux. Um, there's a notion in France, uh, broadly that, um, the more highly esteemed the point of origin, the, the better the fruit, um, the more new oak a wine can wear.

The more new oak, um, will, um, you know, uh, improve, uh, the ultimate result as opposed to, uh, diminishing it. So, uh, for the sake of the first growths, uh, famously Lafitte Latour, they use 100% new oak. Um, which is crazy. Because to taste those wines, you know, there's all this varietal character. You know, a lot of wines age in 100% new oak. They just taste like oak. Uh, but, you know, there is something to this notion that if the fruit is complex enough, then the new oak, the new oak will add, um, to the mix and create something that is greater than the sum of its parts. Um, so they are not shy about new oak, uh, at, at all. Um, this is a wine, um, that sees. Um.

You know, 15, 20% new oak, but it depends on the vintage. Um, in vintages that are more favorable, typically, um, uh, producers will throw new, more new oak, um, at a wine. Because they think it can wear, wear it well. Um, that is true throughout Burgundy, um, as it is, uh, throughout, uh, Bordeaux. So, there's a sense in which new oak is, is a privilege, um, for the sake of the wine. Um, really quickly, a request from the group. Um, can you unmute everyone so we can sing Happy Birthday to Kevin Doyle? Uh, absolutely, absolutely. Uh... Alright, you are all unmuted. ... ... .

All right, sorry, I muted everybody again, apologies, including my moderator, actually. Joni, are you back in the mix? I am. We have more questions. We do, yeah. Yeah, how do you know what grade your wine is? R says on the bottle, Grand Cru Class on 1855, does that mean it's a first growth? Grand Cru Class, typically it won't say Grand Cru, yeah, so Grand Cru Class typically means that it's a growth, to quote Wayne's World, it's a growth, I don't know which growth it is, but it, I had this extra question, I hadn't thought about that much. It's one of those things, I feel like, I feel like the, you know, the first growths are such, like, Madonna, Cher, one, Namers, that they don't even worry about it.

I don't think, typically, they do say second, third, fourth, etc. on the label, but, you know, that's just one of those things that's Google-able. But yeah, the Grand Cru Class A 1855 would just be, at a base level, a designation that it was classified as one of the one through five. That wouldn't necessarily. That wouldn't necessarily tell you which of the tiers it belonged to. Why and when did Malbec become primarily associated with New World wines? Fascinating question. So, Malbec, historically, was one of the most important grapes in Bordeaux. That changed after, so there are a few in the 19th century, there were a bunch of vine blighters. They came from the New World to the Old World and decimated the vineyards of the Old World.

There was Downy Mildew, Powdery Mildew, and Phylloxera. And those forced the vineyard managers and the wineries of the Old World to adapt and change the way they were working in the vineyard. And Malbec did not survive that transition well. Flash forward, Malbec, like Carmoniere, came to the New World. And it was just one of those things. I think outside of its original context that people came to appreciate, and I think the challenge in the New World is always kind of distinguishing yourself from a wine region like Bordeaux that's doing something well and that has this recipe for their wines and, you know, making something new, making something that is, you know, going to break through the noise, as they say on the international wine marketplace.

And I think that's a big part of the reason you see Argentina and Chile working with these grapes that in the Old World are kind of also rands, but in the New World have, you know, become the shares and Madonnas of South America. So, honestly, I think it's as much about, you know, creating a successful brand than it is innate qualities of the grapes. You know, Malbec and Carmoniere, they each have, you know, different things. You know, they have different things to recommend them, but I think that has much to do with how wine is marketed as it does, you know, intrinsic characteristics of the varietals themselves. This is a broader question. With the drastic reduction in global air pollution during COVID, how might this impact grape harvesting, if at all?

I think it's too much of a stretch, like, I'd like to think that, you know, it will mean that 2020 is like this banner year around the world. But there are way too many variables that go into what makes a wine, you know, amazing, vintage to vintage. I don't know. There are a lot of unknowns there. I remain skeptical that it will be a driver of a great vintage, sadly. I hope it will inspire people to think about how polluted their skies are on a normal basis and, you know, try to actively work against that. But honestly, there aren't. There's not huge, there aren't huge issues that I know of in most major wine growing regions with pollution that would affect the development of grapes. Got it.

Do you recommend drinking Bordeaux with food or is it fine to drink alone? Oh, it's a great, I mean, it's great however you want to drink it. I think it's an amazing food wine. I think, you know, consistent with, you know, the classic notion. Of wines from the old world going better with food than, you know, wines from outside of the old world that are more standalone entities. Bordeaux wants to go with food. You know, it has this leaner acid-driven profile that, you know, makes it food friendly. You know, that makes it, you know, something that is playing well in the sandbox as opposed to, you know, standing alone. And so, yeah, I think it's more enjoyable with food. You know, I think a good wine should be.

More enjoyable with food than it is alone. Antoinette said just on that specific thing that you just said. Can you elaborate on the new world wines are on their own and old world is better with food? Yeah, so that has everything to do with, you know, chasing fruit, chasing extraction, chasing higher alcohol. And again, there are, you know, wines from regions of the new world that are, you know, made in more of an old world style. And then vice versa. So, you know, we're trafficking in stereotypes and it's important to acknowledge that. But, you know, as it, you know, has developed, the notion is that wines from a place like Napa, they preconceive more of this like dense, inky, fuller fruitedness.

And they tend to be higher in alcohol in a way that sometimes makes them a little, you know, less enjoyable in the context of a meal because they steal the show. You know, because they're. You know, just so big. They're so in your face that, you know, they're like that guy at a dinner party that just like won't leave you alone, you know, and, you know, you just don't want to invite him. Or you just like see him walk through the front door and it's just like, God, you know, it's like whatever, like Caymus is here. Fuck off, Caymus. You know, I don't I don't want you at my party. And, you know, for me, that's what I struggle with about those wines. You know, they're just kind of like, you know, one note in your face.

That's it. All they had to offer. But by the same token, that's what a lot of people love about them. Can you. Oh, this is prominent. White varietals seem to taste completely different depending on where they are. I'm thinking about Chablis versus California Chardonnays or Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc versus Sancerre. But though the Napa Cab is distinguishable from the Bordeaux, they seem to have a lot in common, at least to my uneducated palate. Is that right? Could you comment on this? That's, you know, I'm glad you mentioned that because at the end of the day, that was one of the things I was hoping you'd get at is this idea that some grapes have, you know, a stronger sense of self than others. And some grapes have more, you know, what wine nerds would call like a varietal signature.

And Cabernet has a huge signature. You know, it is, regardless of where it's grown, always unabashedly Cabernet. And I have two wines that couldn't be more different. But, you know, they are, you know, recognizable as from the same animal. You know, I think about, you know, like you said, which is a great point, because I think about drinking like Marlboro Sauvignon Blanc and then drinking like old school Pouille Fumé or Sancerre. And it would be hard to imagine that those wines come from the same grape, you know, because the Marlboro smells like a litter box. And, you know, the Sancerre is like flinty and smells like those caps that you used to throw at your sister's feet. You know, so. They're just hugely, you know, vibrating on different wavelengths, whereas, you know, these exist like a continuum.

And that's just down to the grape. You know, that's just, you know, down to, you know, the particular sequence of, you know, genomic traits that make Cabernet Cabernet. And, you know, that's part of the mystery of wine that's fun to live in. So earlier you mentioned 1982 being a banner year for Bordeaux's. Can you mention a few other banner years? 2005. That's easy to remember. So 2005 was an amazing vintage everywhere. Pretty much in the old world. But 2005 is, yeah, is a touchstone. Like, I'd say, like, people talk about, you know, once in a generation vintages. 2005, I think, since 82 would be the standard bearer. 2010 was an amazing vintage. It should be noted that very often there is.

There's a deal of difference between how the wines that are more Merlot and Cab Franc heavy are performing and how the wines that are more Cabernet Sauvignon heavy are faring. So there are some vintages where, like, right bank Bordeaux does better than left bank Bordeaux. So, you know, there's variability there, but those were those would be the few that I would identify off the top of my head. Honestly, I end up, like everybody else, cheating and using the Parker Vintage chart. Which reduces everything to a numerical scale, which is is maddening. And again, on this topic of vintages, I think it's more important to find producers that you like. You know, a good winemaker can make a compelling wine in a good and a bad vintage.

You know, a bad winemaker might stumble upon a decent wine in a good vintage. But it's more important for the sake of following wine to understand why one vintage is different from another. You know, I don't like this idea of chasing 2005s and making that the only thing that you drink. You know, that gives you a really limited understanding of what Bordeaux is and what wine is more broadly. So let's say we had a 2005 in the basement. When should we open that? So it depends on the basement, honestly, Joni. All basements are not created equal. There's a great saying about old wine. They say, you know, there are no great old wines. There are only great old bottles. So it's just entirely down to storage.

If you're confident that your basement is, you know, stable and, you know, the wine wasn't exposed to a lot of swings in temperature, then you can keep that until 2035 and, you know, make a night of it. But if you're not sure, if you're not confident, then you could start drinking it now. Are 1982 wines still good or are they aged out? Yeah, they're timeless. You know, they'll probably be good till 20,82. I was, yeah. And again, a lot of that is about how they were stored. You know, storage is preeminent. So Adam Jed, who's on the podcast, he brought in a half bottle of, I think it was Lafite. From 1982. And the rule of thumb for the sake of wine in various volumes is that the smaller the bottle, the faster the wine will age.

So in a half bottle, talking about a wine at that point that was 30 years old in the half bottle, it should have been, you know, dead. But it still tasted like it was in its prime. So, you know, hopefully in two years time, there'll be all sorts of people turning 40 and I'll get a chance to try some 80/800s again. But, you know, and again, I just think this whole notion of, you know, best, better, et cetera, something that people really consume themselves with when they're drinking wine. But it's just much more enjoyable to, you know, just have try to have fun with it. Obviously, if you're spending that much on an individual bottle, you want to show well.

But, you know, just enjoy things that, you know, the various life phases, much like we enjoy, you know, our grandfather, because he's old enough that he doesn't give a rat's ass about what he says and a toddler because, you know, they have that you want to be. So, you know, you should be able to appreciate wines and wine. Um, what's the best value for an 18/82 wine if you were willing to splurge? Um. I would seek out. I mean, it obviously wouldn't be a first-growth. Um, I would. I would maybe seek out one of the lesser growths, like I think like Bataille is one of my favorite fifth growths and I've had some really amazing old wines from them, um, you know, otherwise there are some amazing properties outside of the classification system that are worth seeking out.

So honestly, it's a case that like. The more obscure, the better, but with older wine, I would worry a lot about who it's coming from. So I would just make sure that you're seeking out wine from a merchant that you trust, the auction market is hugely variable. You know, for stuff like that, I tend to buy from online retailers. So a couple of my favorites are Aster out of New York. I would buy from them sight unseen; KW out of California is great or KL rather out of California is great. And then my favorite liquor store in the world is Chambers Street in Tribeca in New York. And those are those are all wine stores that have all sorts of stuff available online.

And, you know, I would, you know, and then they tend not to sell stuff that's going to be a thousand dollars, you know, sight unseen. So at what price point does Bordeaux go from great to exceptional? Oh, that's a fun question. So you're dealing with an economic paradigm that is the diminishing rate of returns, which is a fun concept, especially as it concerns expensive wine. So, you know, the idea is there is a as a broader rule, I find there is a huge difference between there's like an ocean worth of difference between a ten dollar bottle and a twenty dollar bottle, you know, resale. You know, I'd rather drink cheap beer than most ten dollar bottle retail wines. But at twenty dollars, you can make fun things happen.

A good wine store at fifteen dollars, you can make good things happen. The the gap from twenty to thirty, in my mind, is the most interesting gap because you go from like, you know, you know, fun, drinkable work-a-day wines at twenty dollars to at thirty dollars, if you play your cards right, you can go to like, you know, maybe a little bit of age, maybe really special, etc. Bordeaux is a little harder because it's a more well-known commodity. That said, there's just an ocean of wine coming out of Bordeaux. So if you hit it right at thirty, thirty-five dollars with Bordeaux, you can get something that's, you know, amazing. You shouldn't have to spend more than fifty dollars for an awesome Bordeaux.

At fifty dollars, you should be able to get something that is just like banging, amazing, super fun. Once you pass fifty dollars when it comes to wine, you are entering the realm of what you want to be. And that's the first thing - more about scarcity style, hopefully age, but it's more about those things. And it is about the inherent worth of what's in the bottle itself. And I think that's really important to understand. Above that, it's about scarcity, it's less about deliciousness. How did American oak get so prevalent in winemaking? It's easier to work with. So, French oak is a different species than American oak. French oak, in order to make a barrel, has to be split along the grain.

So you get a lot less usable material for a barrel out of an individual French oak tree than you do out of an American oak tree, which can saw. And that has to do with lignans, these kind of biological kind of biological property of the oak that makes it more or less water retentive. So you can make a lot more barrels out of American oak. The flavor profile is also different. French oak tends to transmit a set of flavors that are a little more subtle, nuanced, and lean more in the delicate, baking spice direction, whereas, again, not to belabor the point, but American oak, not unlike Americans themselves, is more bombastic, it's more in your face, it's more like, you know, coconut, caramel. It's like, uh, oak in your face, just because that's what American oak does.

That said, American oak, I have this, like, huge kind of guilty pleasure for. The wines in their youth, they can be really; they can be too much. But as wines age, and a lot of American oak age, so as they come into their own after decades, they become, like, really fascinating and interesting and unexpectedly profound. Last three questions, Bill, you're doing great. Do you prefer French Cabernet Sauvignon or New World? Cabernet Sauvignon in the end? I'm a; I'm a snob, so I tend to, well, that's not; I like it all, so I'm polyamorous for the sake of my wine drinking. I love them both. I like what they both bring to the table. I would, I wouldn't want to ask one to be the other.

I get upset when, you know, people make Bordeaux like it's Cali Cabernet; and conversely, I don't think Cali Cabernet works if you're trying to make Bordeaux. You know, I want to let olive be olive at the end of the day. I want to, you know, let the wine be the best version of itself. And if you are being true to yourself, I think those are the most compelling things in wine as in life. So I, I love, I've had some amazing moments with especially, like, lovably old school, you know, Cali Cab. It is just amazing. It is like just incredibly profound and delicious, you know, so. Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to begrudge that pleasure to anyone, but, you know, work a day, I tend to have a preference for old world wines.

Um, what vegetarian food would you eat with Bordeaux? Ooh, I would. Vegetarian food as a class tends to go better with. With white wine, rose, that kind of thing than it does with red wine. That said, I would want to like roast the hell out of some root veg or like really like lay into like a head of cauliflower and then throw some curry spice in the mix. I wouldn't want to make it too spicy, you know, but like baking spice, you know, that like clove cardamom thing that mimics, you know, some of the age, you know, the oak that you can see on Bordeaux, I think would be like really fabulous with a like a veg heavy dish.

I would want something that was less green and more like, you know, roasted and robust, I guess, at the end of the day. But I think Bordeaux could be a great match. Or, you know, certain shapes and sizes of a vegetarian dishes. Lots of lots of suggestions for mushrooms. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So those are way better suggestions than the ones I just came up with. Yeah. So I think again, but I would I would say like to just vindicate myself, say like roast the hell out of all of it. I think at the end of the day, that's the that's the correct answer with Bordeaux. Bordeaux wants grilled things. It wants things that are like, you know, roasted to extremist eggplant. I think you want things that taste veggie dishes that taste meaty.

John, one John Seibert, you know, my captain, when it comes to food, does a great job making vegetables taste like meat and has brought vegetarians to tears because of that, and eggplant and mushrooms do that really well. So those would be fabulous. The best recent vintages are 2015 and 2010; yeah, those are 15 is great. Ten is great. The past couple of vintages, we probably haven't been released yet. I've been very ripe, but really elegant. But, but again, I would just like to wholeheartedly question, we're entering this realm, especially in these marginal regions where greatness historically was defined by redness and 18, 19 were hugely ripe vintages in a way that. Celebrated in terms of scores. But you may or may not like if you like a particular style of wine.

And, you know, I find that I like wine from more classic vintages. So, you know, taste a variety of vintages and don't let anyone dictate to you the style of wine that you like, you know, figure it out for yourself. All right. Last question from Kevin Doyle, birthday boy. Being that the 82 vintage is as stellar as it is, would you say there is a difference or would you say there is a quality difference with left or right? The right bank for that vintage? I mean, the left bank wines are always going to be the more ageable ones. And the right bank really in 82 wasn't a thing yet. So the wines of the right bank, particularly Pomerol, which we didn't talk about, became hugely popular in the 90s.

So they're just I mean, there would be some of that kind of thing from the right bank in '82. But, you know, the left bank wines, the ones you wonder. That's all she wrote. I got amazing. There are 121 people left on the chat. Thank you all for following along as I as I, you know, grit and grinned through all of these questions and through all of the topic matter at hand here. You guys are fucking amazing. I can't imagine, you know, having done this under a different set of circumstances. But I am eternally grateful that, you know, it's been thrust upon me and we'll be right back at it. Next week. And, you know, thank you again, Joni, for doing this. Kay Doyle, happy birthday, buddy. And I'm sure to see all of you home. I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening. Bye.